Yorick, you've hit on one of my pet hates there! I hate that place names get 'anglicized' or even completely changed in English to something different than the name the locals call a place. I realise that place names have and will probably continue to change as people move, languages change, cultures change etc. these things are always dynamic. But I think it is better to use as a standard name whatever the 'locals' use - Deutschland is not a difficult word in any language. Place names are of course written in a variety of characters and alphabets, but where they are translated into a different alphabet this should be done phonetically so the sound of the word stays true, not just given a different name.

Oh, back on topic http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif I'm from England, born in Surrey (South East of the country) live in London, but an internationalist and citizen of the world.

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http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas.

Same here Epona. It's not just in English that happens. It's an attitude left over from Rome - the Greeks would call people what they called themselves, but the Romans renamed them. The French call Deutschland: Allemagne. The Italians call it Allemani. So named to differentiate the Germanic tribe there as opposed to the Franks in France, the Lombards/Ostrogoths in Italy and the Visigoths of Spain.

There's the ludicrous situation in Switzerland where the country has a name in each language and a fair number of cities have different names depending on the language! (Italian, French or Deutsch)

Even in Singapore I got really annoyed with a fellow Aussie who inisted on
giving place names an Aussie accent! Created confusion because no place they were referring to existed. (Like Americans calling Brisbane ( - Pron. Brizbun), Briz-bane. This same Aussie REFUSED to call German Deutsch in conversation, and acted like I was wierd for referring to the language by it's name. (Boy did we get on like a house on fire. They also bagged computers/internet conversation, ignored new foods, laughed at local customs, and would 'shut off' if a conversation went into areas they knew little about. Very very strange attitude... but that's another story)

It's changing now though with examples like Congo -> Zaire -> Congo, Burma -> Myanmar, and Madras -> Chennai, Bombay -> Mumbai occuring thanks to educated journalism. Australia has called the capital of China Beijing for at least 12 years, but not all other nations do. Some still call it Peking.

I'd love to see more of those atlases that ONLY refer to a place in the local name. Praha, Roma, Venezia, Sverige, Norge, Munchen, Nippon, etc etc.

Wolgir and all the other Swedes for eg: Why not change your left hand box to 'Sverige'? Educate us!


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A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 04-01-2001).]

Ok Ok.
I'm from Norway. Ca. 1 Norwegian Mile outside of Oslo.(1 mile = 10 km, 1 km = 1000 m, 1 m = 100 cm and so on)
Go Norway.
Any others from Norway???
I don't want to be the only Norwegian with all these Swedish and Danish people. I get sick. And just to mention it you guys from sweden Ericson(or somthing) goes very bad.(■■■■ Ericson, sorry I hope you don't start a war)

The Xlord
Defender and Master of Good Archmagic
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Interesting point there Epona, given that the name of our own country is a corruption. Technically England is meant to be land of the Angles, but "Ang" has changed to "Eng". Yet still in French its true meaning is obvious, thus the French name is technically more accurate.

Yorick some of the country names in Africa are meaningless when refering to a country, as the areas were just areas demarked by colonial powers, after the treaty of Berlin, IIRC.


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Hey, that's a really good idea - I could certainly learn something if people did that. I try always to learn something about cultures and languages that I am unfamiliar with, and with this board being so international it would be a good place to do that. I don't know many place names beyond what they are changed to in English, but I am more than willing to learn. Same goes with languages, I am pretty much monolingual (hangs head in shame) but am keen to try and learn some things from languages other than English, so I would be happy to see people posting in other languages - although I might not be able to reply easily (if at all!) it would benefit me to try and learn something new.

I could be wrong, but I also think that languages and concepts, cultures, ways of thinking and viewing the world, are linked, and to know only one language can limit the ways in which you think to fit the structure of the language you use. (Not sure if that made any sense at all - if not, it probably isn't an English concept, so cannot be explained properly in English - I think that's what I mean).

Wasn't there once a language thread in Gen. Discussions? Perhaps we could ressurrect something like that.

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http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas.

Very good point - and of course all countries and the idea of national boundaries and demarkations are quite modern concepts. Look at Europe for example, changes which occur all the time - the carve-up of borders and formation of new states after the both world wars, formation and then breakup of the USSR and the balkan states - these things are constantly in flux, and the idea of having a 'nationality' in a modern sense would have been completely alien to an ancient Roman - they were Roman by culture, not by country.

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http://www.gldb.com/wayno/epona2.gif
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas.

Sure, but then words Anglican and Anglo recreate the original intent when used. The point is the English call themselves English, whatever the original meaning of the word. (Which may well have alienated any Celts, Jutes, Saxons, Normans and Danes still living in 'Angleland' http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif )

Some doesn't mean all with regard to Africa. Benin is the name of the Ancient Kingdom of the Area the modern nation covers. Liberia was so named as a home to freed slaves. Zimbabwe provided a name that gave local identity replacing the English name Rhodesia. And what about places like Lesotho and Swaziland?
Better that we call it what the locals call it, because chances are it has more significance than an Anglicised name.


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The Romans did this with relation to peoples/races (Keltoi bacame Gauls) as well as land areas. The English did it in Australia with things like Uluru. Oh, there's a nice big rock, let's call it Ayers Rock!

It's like me walking up to the Thames and saying. Hmm nice river, think I'll call it the Bojobrindallamup creek. Then going back to Oz and writing about the Bojo creek http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-.../1orglaugh.gif not even bothering to find out what Londoners/Westmisterites call it.



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Xlord did you read our discussion? Aren't you from Norge?


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But words in any language are not meant to remain static - all words evolve with time and with interaction between both native and foreign people.

If I wanted to stick to the past, I should not say I am French - my father's family comes from the city of Nice, and my mother's family from the northeastern area of France called Lorraine, and these two places have been rattached to France only 150 years ago, having been mostly independant through history by their location near to frontiers.

The name "Lorraine" comes from the name of Charlemagne's son Lothaire. "Nice" comes from the ancient Greek name "Nicae".

"Grenoble" is a Roman name, it comes from "Gratianopolis" - the ancient name of it was "Cularo", back when this place was only a village. Would you recognize where I live if I said I lived in "Cularo" ?

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http://www.ot-nancy.fr/photos_ot/s_fontaine_neptune.jpg

The origin isn't important it's what the majority of people who live in an area, or call the language they speak, or name themselves, refer to presently (and this will change as in the case of the aforementioned Mumbai/Channai cases.)

It would be an insult to call you Moron, your language Frankie and your town Grimebill simply because I can't be bothered learning or pronouncing the names you use. It's not a matter of sticking to the past or not. In the case of Germany/Allemagne/Allemani, it is sticking to the past that is the problem! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif


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As Europe unifies I think you'll find it becomes more important for proper communication and administration to refer to a language, place or people with one name rather than all the different translations.

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So whose language do you pick when deciding the single name? You would hope what the speakers call it. Whose name for a town? Hopefully what the locals refer to it as.

I like talking to myself http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

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O.K..... what do I do now?
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Yorick, I didn't say I didn't agree with you, I merely pointed out that names evolve with time and with people speaking them. They always have. Current names for places in the world are already deformations from original names that we don't even remember ! If a sufficient number of people started to name my town Grimebill, then it would become Grimebill after a while !

Moorein, the Frankie girl



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Sorry it takes so much time for me to answer one post ...

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No worries http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif


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O.K..... what do I do now?
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Epona, ma'am, Yorick, Sir Tainly,


please forgive me, but I beg to differ: that countries/cities have their own names in different languages is an integral part of the respective language/culture and also very telling about the historic relationship and ties between the two countries and cultures (the "naming" one and the one being "named"). So, to eradicate these names would strike me as exceptionally oblivious of history, as "unhistoric" in the worst possible meaning. Please also note: having own names for "geographic entities" is not a sign of ignorance between countries as a result of being far away from each other, but quite to the contrary, is most frequent among neighbouring countries and cultures.


By all of the above, I am, of course, not advocating the kind of ignorance displayed by Yorick's Australian friends in Singapore, but for me the consequence is one that requires a little work: every educated individual should strive to know the names in at least 3 languages - in English, the lingua franca of this age, in the respective country's language(s) and in his/her native language (Milan, Milano, Mailand; Barcelona, Barcelona, Barcelona ... hey, wait a minute ... http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif).


To give you another, rather solemn, example: As you might know, at the end of WW II, Germany had to cede vast territories in its east to Poland (and a small part to the USSR), which in turn had to cede large territories to the USSR. The German population, a total of 13 Mio. fom all of Eastern Europe, were expelled.
Because this territories had been German for 800 years, it took about 30 years until all major segments of the German society had fully accepted the irrevocability of this loss. This process was obviously helped by the enormity of Germany's guilt in WW II and the fact that the long postwar economic boom facilitated the integration of the expellees into the West German society.
At around the time, the mid seventies, it become fashionable in the media to call the cities in those former German territories by their Polish names - like Wroclaw instead of Breslau for the capital of Silesia - and anything else was considered "revanchist". Now, after the Berlin Wall had come down, the cultural interchange between Germany and Poland reintensified. Many Poles of all ages speak German remarkably well. None of them ever hesitated one second to call Breslau Breslau or considered to call it Wroclaw when speaking German.


( Yorick, my friend, my true reason for opposing you on this matter, is of course that I fear that your attempts to name things in their original languages
might result in more cases of "sausages" ... http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif )


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So long !

R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts

[This message has been edited by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon (edited 04-01-2001).]

Here, here !

I am, too, bothered by the handicap of being a very slow poster. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif


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So long !


R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts

Town and cities change names for various reasons, Ottawa Used to be Bytown (named after the General James By If I recall)and now all the cities around Ottawa (Vanier, Glouster, Orléan, Kanata, nepean) will be called Ottawa. The city next to Ottawa in the next province is called Hull, Hull used to be called Wrightville (very long time ago) by it's founder now they are also joining (Hull, Gatineau, Gatineau-pointe, Aylmer, Cantley) into a new city, People must vote for the new name the lead is Outaouais (naming the city after the quebec region it's in).

But Ottawa is the way the english spelled Outaouais(french) with the French mispelled from a native word. So moraine is right alot of times it's how the people say the word that determines the name.

Ok I think you should read the subject title again.

Angleland which became "England" with time!

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Neil

Hesperex, where is Great Britain http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif ?

Just tried to find the country of Great Britain on the map. Don't exist. Personally I detest with a passion being referred to as British, I also hate seeing blue in the English football teams strip when there's none in our national flag and I despise seeing the Union flag representing ENGLAND at International events. Whilst people instantly recognise a Scot as a Scot or an Irishman as an Irishman it seems the English are too often referred to as British (as opposed to the Scot's etc being labelled British) and it seems to me that the English are fast losing their identity. Christ, the amount of English people that don't even know the date of our own patron Saints day is imho shameful. Anyway, gripe over http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

I'm an Englishman from England btw.

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One love, peace.

You and your Duetschlanders! Just don't give any to John Hopoate!

We'll have to agree to disagree then Sir Ramon. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif I for one endeavour to call Deutschland, Sverige, Nederland, Norge, Italia, Slovenija, The Magyars, Ceska, Polska, Danmark, Espana, Suisse/Schweiz/Svizzera, etc etc by that which they call themselves wherever possible.



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O.K..... what do I do now?
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A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Except that you would need the special '~' on the 'n' of Espana to spell it right ! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif



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The world is my oyster !

Another good reason to stay inside all day, posting or gaming ! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif

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So long !


R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts

Yorick, would you care to educate me on the figurative - I suppose - meaning of Mr Hopoate's existence ?

Btw, what did - all of a sudden - elevate me to the ranks of the nobles ?


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So long !


R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts

And he charges very low rates for rooms! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif

Oh, and I'm from the USA, upstate NY and sorry, no pics of bridges and opera houses in my repertoire http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gif

Troublemaking Cloud with time on her hands http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif



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Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight

By the number of your posts you seem to have a lot of time on your hands http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

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Don't mess with the Lich

From US, But pure blood pinoy here.

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Mess with the best Die like the Rest!!

bump !

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So long !


R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts

Thats exactly what the Roman's did, the river was named by them! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
"Tamesis"



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Ha ! :handshake:



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The world is my oyster !

I was avocating the use of "localised" names, so we aren't disagreeing http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

Your point is particularly valid with Germany/Poland, given that Poland as a nation has particularly unstable borders, throughout history Poland has been reshaped many times, the only part that has been in Poland for the majority of its existance is the area around Warsaw.

Another good point occurs when two or more groups of people inhabit a city, using the above examples, what would Danzig by on a 1930s map? Danzig/Gdansk/League of Nations Freecity? The city contained both Poles and Germans, both local, both with a different name for the city. Thus Ramon (x3) I agree with you.


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Bonjour Moiraine,

I'm too lazy to read back through the posts, which side were you advocating, localisation of each country naming places as they find them?

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I was not really advocating any side, I merely pointed out that names change over time according to how people refer to them.

I agree wholeheartedly with Yorick when he says that it is a matter of politeness to refer to local places with the name the natives give them.

However, I made the remark that the 'native' name may have been given by foreigners long ago (like "Gratianopolis" -> "Grenoble" - funny, since the Romains gave this name to make the name of their Emperor remembered, but today almost nobody correlates "Grenoble" with Gratian !).

There is also the fact that a native name can be unpronounceable by foreign tongues, so in some cases a 'foreign' name may be better in the sake of communication. Or maybe the translation of the meaning of the native name ?

A balance must be found between respect of local cultures and communication needs.

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http://www.ot-nancy.fr/photos_ot/s_fontaine_neptune.jpg
The world is my oyster !

[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 04-02-2001).]

Well said Moiraine, I guess going on the pronounciation its easy to see why soldiers in world war one called Ypres "wipers". Ypres isn't so easy in English http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

Still the problem remains in English where even we pronounce our own place names differently to there spelling e.g. Worcester http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif


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Usually, after a long while of mispronouncing, the written name changes to adjust to the spoken name. (Like "Ottawa" http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif or "Grenoble" http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif ).
I am willing to bet that "Worcester" will be spelled differently in a century or two - alas, I won't be there to collect the prize ... http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif



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http://www.ot-nancy.fr/photos_ot/s_fontaine_neptune.jpg
The world is my oyster !

I disagree I think people like the fact it is spelt oddly, catches out tourists who wish to go to "War-cester", to where? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

(I had this done to me in France when I mispronounced a place name and I didn't even bat an eyelid when someone ask if this was the train to Gatwitch airport http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif )

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Sweden, land of the Vikings

And I had always thought that Worcester was nothing but a sauce ! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif

Ramon from Perfume City


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So long !


R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts