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-   -   BG2 Spell Reference Updated - Again! (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10088)

Alson 10-20-2002 12:20 PM

Another update! [img]smile.gif[/img]
Naturally, not as massive as the last one.

</font>
  • Mentioned Energy Blades getting the cheesy off-hand attack after all.</font>
  • Mentioned (Improved) Haste doubling regeneration rates.</font>
  • Mentioned equal regeneration rates stacking.</font>
  • Revisited judgment on Harm.</font>
  • Mentioned Time Stop's paralysis making attacks automatically successful.</font>
  • Corrected and expanded the stacking of (Improved) Chaos Shields in triggers.</font>
  • Added missing creature filenames and HD ratings.</font>
  • Crushed another typo. My quest for perfection continues!</font>
  • Mentioned Immunity to Conjuration protecting against those nasty insect spells.</font>
  • Mentioned Mirror Image and Project Image being especially vulnerable to dispel.</font>
  • Mentioned Spell Shield protecting against beholder anti-magic rays.</font>
  • Various minor corrections and rewordings.</font>
Plus, it's moved. Here. Should load much faster now.
Any feedback is welcomed. [img]smile.gif[/img]

DJG 10-20-2002 12:42 PM

Yet again, I salute you Alson! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Well done!

Alson 10-20-2002 12:51 PM

Thanks, DJG!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Any other feedback? Suggestions? Additions?

Alson 10-20-2002 04:21 PM

Anybody?

LennonCook 10-21-2002 02:20 AM

<font color="lightblue">I still think you should use the Staff of the Magi spelltrap over a memorised version; because it lasts longer, absorbs more spells, and doesn`t waste a potentially dangerous (to your opponents) spell slot, which could very well mean the difference between needing to recharge it again, and winning outright while still being able to go on to your next fight... </font>

daan 10-21-2002 05:43 AM

The SotM-spell trap doesnt absorb more spells, it simply last longer when nobody is trying to dispell it somehow. Both the regular and the SotM-spell trap can absorb 30 spell-lvls.Further on, as Alson mentioned a few times allready, the memorized spell trap can be re-memorized during the recharging ... shooting spells at the SotM-spell trap, wont recharge that spell-trap. So the SotM-spell trap only allows for the tactic to work once per rest, while the other can go on forever.

Alson 10-21-2002 11:55 AM

Thank you, Daan. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Technically, there IS a way to rechagre the Staff's Spell Trap - but the random factor of it makes it, IMO, less useful.

pook 10-23-2002 09:26 PM

I have really learned a lot from your site. Of course, being new to BG and new to AD&D at the same time, there's a lot to learn though that's not to take anything away from your stuff.

However, in trying out some of your suggestions, I find in improved haste that I simply don't know what you are saying.

"This spell has a "power" of only 3, meaning it knocks only three levels off (Minor) Spell Deflection or Turning. This may have been BioWare's intention, since you now cannot destroy a Minor Spell Turning by bouncing one of these off it."

I know you are listing it as a bug, but what it means is beyond me. Do you mean to say that if you use one after the other, then...or what?

Since you are an expert in contrast to me, I wanted to let you know that this was the only thing on your site that I have found so far, that I didn't know what you meant. (Besides, I still want to know what you mean. [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Job well done mate!

pook

pook 10-23-2002 09:28 PM

Oh yes, I forgot. How do you "technically" update the SOM spell trap?

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Pook

Alson 10-24-2002 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pook:
I have really learned a lot from your site. Of course, being new to BG and new to AD&D at the same time, there's a lot to learn though that's not to take anything away from your stuff.

However, in trying out some of your suggestions, I find in improved haste that I simply don't know what you are saying.

"This spell has a "power" of only 3, meaning it knocks only three levels off (Minor) Spell Deflection or Turning. This may have been BioWare's intention, since you now cannot destroy a Minor Spell Turning by bouncing one of these off it."

I know you are listing it as a bug, but what it means is beyond me. Do you mean to say that if you use one after the other, then...or what?

"Power" means the level the spell is considered by the Game Engine.
Almost all of the spells are correctly implemented - their "Power" is indeed equal to their level.
In some cases, like Improved Haste (which is a level 6 spell, but has a "Power" level of 3) or Remove Curse (which is a level 4 spell, but has a "Power" level of 3), there was an error in implementing the spell. BioWare were too lazy, i suppose, so they just "Copy&Pasted" spells instead of creating new ones. :rolleyes:
This doesn't matter much - but, for example, when trying to soak back a level 6 spells with a Spell Trap, don't use Improved Haste - it won't work. (It WILL recharge a level 3 spell, though [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Quote:

Since you are an expert in contrast to me, I wanted to let you know that this was the only thing on your site that I have found so far, that I didn't know what you meant. (Besides, I still want to know what you mean. [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Job well done mate!

Thank man, both for the compliment and the feedback! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-24-2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Alson 10-24-2002 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pook:
Oh yes, I forgot. How do you "technically" update the SOM spell trap?
Using the Rest option of the Wish spell. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jim 11-03-2002 01:48 PM

Quote:

Any feedback is welcomed.
Well, I've finally got round to reading this guide and have a little feedback for ya [img]smile.gif[/img]

Firstly I'd like to say that that's a great spell guide and it's obvious that a lot of hard time and effort has gone into its creation. I would like to comment of a few points however:

It seems that you've mentioned the saving throw bonus/penalty that some spells give, but not all of them. In order to make the guide consistent, I'd suggest mentioning all the saving throw modifiers for applicable spells. A quick browse found the following saves that need adding, but I've a feeling there's a few more:

web (-2)
confusion (-2)
slow (-4)
feeblemind (-2)
finger of death (divine and arcane) (-2)
The symbol spell fear and stuns (-4)
mental domination (-2)

There was a comment about the use any item ability, to allow a thief to use Carsomyr, Human Flesh, Ring of Gaxx, Amulet of Seradine to provide 90% MR. I know these items were only given as examples, but Carsomyr grants 50% MR, not +50% MR, so you can see the MR stack only if you equip the Carsomyr first, then the other items, but the first time you actually use Carsomyr, its 50% MR will be applied and override any other bonuses (apart from innate MR), so this combination won't actually give 90% MR.

Quote:

Shops will give you about a 10% discount for being such a swell person
The above comment about Charisma is a little vague. This discount depends entirely on the actual CHA value. Discounts stop advancing after a CHA of 20, with 20 giving the maximum discount of 25%.

Example (prices in brackets reflect percentage discount):
Staff of Rynn +4, Base cost: 22275
16 CHA = 21060 (5%)
17 CHA = 19980 (10%)
18 CHA= 18900 (15%)
19 CHA= 17820 (20%)
20 CHA= 16605 (25%)

Quote:

Shield Spell: Protects much better than Armor but lasts only half as long (too short to cast after resting). It does provide total immunity to Magic Missiles (though not in Baldur's Gate I or Icewind Dale). Useful at low levels. Get either this or Armor, depending on your tastes.
The shield spell in IWD does protect from Magic Missiles (and also Force Missiles).

The following are some minor corrections to the guide:

Sword Spiders have 5 attacks per round, not 4 as was referenced by the spider spawn spell (as creatures they have 4 APR base, but have permament haste).

Here are some of my opinions regarding spells:

Quote:

Not really an improvement over lower level area damage spells.
Cone of Cold was referenced as above, but name another spell that deals upto 20D4+20 damage for level 5 ;)

It was suggested to take skull trap over sunfire, but sunfire is available by level 9 (so a skull trap would do 9D6 at this equivalent level) and deals 50% more damage than a fireball dealing 15D6 damage! I think sunfire is a very capable spell. There's also no danger of harming the caster like there is for a fireball or skull trap spell.

I wouldn't refer to Protection from Acid as "Worthless" since it makes one particular engagement in the game much easier and it lasts an age (upto 20 turns).

It was stated that the Divine and Arcane Protection from Fire spells were identical. This isn't the case. The arcane version lasts 1 turn per level and grants +50% fire resistance. The divine version grants +80% and lasts 3 rounds +1/level. This also makes the 2nd level priest spell "Resist Fire/Cold" useful since the fire bonuses from this spell and from "Protection from Fire" are cumulative, therefore granting the max 127% fire resistance to allow fire to heal you.

Regarding Unholy Blight:

Quote:

Unholy Blight: The Evil version of Holy Smite. Practically worthless; Good enemies are pretty rare (unless you like having a Reputation of 0). Druids are spared this spell
This is a tiny nitpick, but it's not possible to have rep of less than 1.

Quote:

Cure Serious Wounds: Practically the same as Cure Medium Wounds. This is supposed to be an upgrade, but heals only three pathetic Hit Points more. Go for it only if you really need the healing. Druids are better off getting an extra Call Woodland Beings in any case.
I think you've got this and cure medium wounds muddled up. Cure medium wounds heals 3 HP more than cure light wounds. Cure serious wounds cures 6 hp more than cure medium wounds.

There was also a comment about the Aerial Servant being about as touch as a mountain bear. In fact, the AS is much tougher with 128 HP compared to 70 HP.

I've also never understood the fascination with Natures Beauty. They get a +3 bonus to the save or die, and the blindness only affects a tiny 5 foot radius around the caster, so I'm not sure how you disable half the battlefield with this one. It's a good spell, but there are much better 7th level divine spells IMO.

I'm sure there were other things I was going to comment on but can't remember at the moment. I'll let you know if I think of anything else. Again, nice guide!

DJG 11-03-2002 01:54 PM

Alson, you are a saint!

I've bookmarked your site!

I had some queries about spells and your site really helped!

PS: I've lost my manual.
PPS: I'll help you with your site in any way I can Alson!

Dundee Slaytern 11-03-2002 02:03 PM

A little nitpick about Spike Traps. They do not affect everybody. The blue guardians in Watcher's Keep level 5 are immuned to them.

On this page, Liches can and will cast on you with direct-damage spells even if you are totally invisible. This applies to other enemies that can see through invisibility.

ADD] The website seems leery of having high resistances, judging from the way it described the various Protection from ~~ spells, but resistances should not be underestimated, and should be highly embraced at all times. Healing from the enemy is a wonderful power tactic, and there is no problem with spell disruption because you can just choose to cast when the enemy is not casting. Remember, if they cannot hurt you, they cannot kill you.

Pierce Shield was a bit of misinformation as well. It is not a RRoR+Weaker Lower Resistance, but a Secret Word+Lower Resistance. At level 20, both LR and PS lowers the enemy's Magic Resistance by 30%. 3 of these in a Chain Contingency is extremely scary to an enemy Mage. Take out one and throw in a RRoR if the target has Spell Trap.

Quote:

Protection from Energy
Another very sad spell for its level. Even less effective than its cheaper brothers that at least provide complete resistance. Don't go anywhere near this spell.
I wholely disagree with this. ;) 75% resistance to Fire/Cold/Electricity/Acid/Magic Damage is not to be sniffed at. Combine with the Belt of Inertial Barrier and you heal from Magic Missile/Skull Trap/ADHW. Combine with other equipment, and you gain immunity and healing when possible. This spell should not be underestimated.

ADD] ADD]
Quote:

Finger of Death
Save-or-else suffer some minor damage anyway. Go for Polymorph Other if you like insta-kill save-or-else spells, go for Magic Missile if you like damage spells. Either way, save your precious level 7 slots for something good.
He's kidding right? I was slaying Fire Giants and Dragons in ToB with this spell. They key here is Greater Malison.

Quote:

The Skeleton Warrior is 90% magic resistant and therefore very effective against spellcasters and Mind Flayers, and allows you to cast area damage spells at the creatures they are engaged with.
Your friend does know that "even if your summon does not get hurt, it will go hostile", right?

Quote:

Feeblemind
Mediocre save-or-else spell. Leaves one enemy standing around drooling for the rest of the battle, but Polymorph Other already did something like that and Domination does something much more useful.
Mediocre my a**. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Feeblemind is the reason why I managed to kill Abazigal with a Dispel Magic. ;) It has a -2 save penalty, combine with Greater Malison for a -6 penalty. Throw in Doom for a -8 penalty.

Quote:

Protection from Acid
Worthless. Will still not protect you from round-to-round spell disruption from Melf's Acid Arrow. Pretty sad spell for level 6.
Level 5 you mean. ;)

Quote:

Spell Immunity
~~ Versatile spell, may come in handy sometimes. Just don't hold your breath.
Urm... rightttt... SI is one of the best protection spells in the game. I laugh at Kangaxx and all other Liches because of this spell.

I will continue tomorrow.

[ 11-03-2002, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Alson 11-03-2002 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim:
Well, I've finally got round to reading this guide and have a little feedback for ya [img]smile.gif[/img]

Firstly I'd like to say that that's a great spell guide and it's obvious that a lot of hard time and effort has gone into its creation. I would like to comment of a few points however:
Thanks for the intelligent reply. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

It seems that you've mentioned the saving throw bonus/penalty that some spells give, but not all of them. In order to make the guide consistent, I'd suggest mentioning all the saving throw modifiers for applicable spells. A quick browse found the following saves that need adding, but I've a feeling there's a few more:

web (-2)
confusion (-2)
slow (-4)
feeblemind (-2)
finger of death (divine and arcane) (-2)
The symbol spell fear and stuns (-4)
mental domination (-2)
We only mentioned saves in cases where it was a Manual correction, or very important for the review of the spell. ;)

Quote:

There was a comment about the use any item ability, to allow a thief to use Carsomyr, Human Flesh, Ring of Gaxx, Amulet of Seradine to provide 90% MR. I know these items were only given as examples, but Carsomyr grants 50% MR, not +50% MR, so you can see the MR stack only if you equip the Carsomyr first, then the other items, but the first time you actually use Carsomyr, its 50% MR will be applied and override any other bonuses (apart from innate MR), so this combination won't actually give 90% MR.
Yes, you and i had this discussion already. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Will replace with Purifier.

Quote:

The above comment about Charisma is a little vague. This discount depends entirely on the actual CHA value. Discounts stop advancing after a CHA of 20, with 20 giving the maximum discount of 25%.

Example (prices in brackets reflect percentage discount):
Staff of Rynn +4, Base cost: 22275
16 CHA = 21060 (5%)
17 CHA = 19980 (10%)
18 CHA= 18900 (15%)
19 CHA= 17820 (20%)
20 CHA= 16605 (25%)
Will reword.

Quote:

The shield spell in IWD does protect from Magic Missiles (and also Force Missiles).
But since this is a BG2 Spell Reference... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

The following are some minor corrections to the guide:

Sword Spiders have 5 attacks per round, not 4 as was referenced by the spider spawn spell (as creatures they have 4 APR base, but have permament haste).
Yea, we already noticed it. It'll be there next version. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

Here are some of my opinions regarding spells:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Not really an improvement over lower level area damage spells.
Cone of Cold was referenced as above, but name another spell that deals upto 20D4+20 damage for level 5 ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Cone of Cold: 20D4+20 = Average 42+20 = 62.
Skull Trap: 60D6 = Average 183.
Level 3. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

It was suggested to take skull trap over sunfire, but sunfire is available by level 9 (so a skull trap would do 9D6 at this equivalent level) and deals 50% more damage than a fireball dealing 15D6 damage! I think sunfire is a very capable spell. There's also no danger of harming the caster like there is for a fireball or skull trap spell.
I didn't quite get this one.
Skull Trap is availabe earlier, and deals better damage.
A simple aiming will prevent damaging the caster.

Quote:

I wouldn't refer to Protection from Acid as "Worthless" since it makes one particular engagement in the game much easier and it lasts an age (upto 20 turns).
Yes. One. :D
Every spell can be useful once, but we're talking about good overall spells.

Quote:

It was stated that the Divine and Arcane Protection from Fire spells were identical. This isn't the case. The arcane version lasts 1 turn per level and grants +50% fire resistance. The divine version grants +80% and lasts 3 rounds +1/level. This also makes the 2nd level priest spell "Resist Fire/Cold" useful since the fire bonuses from this spell and from "Protection from Fire" are cumulative, therefore granting the max 127% fire resistance to allow fire to heal you.
Check out the description.
The Manual is wrong - Protecion from Fire (both Arcane and Divine) grants 100% resistance. Havn't checked into the duration part.

Quote:

Regarding Unholy Blight:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Unholy Blight: The Evil version of Holy Smite. Practically worthless; Good enemies are pretty rare (unless you like having a Reputation of 0). Druids are spared this spell
This is a tiny nitpick, but it's not possible to have rep of less than 1.</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks. Xyx hates Typos.

Quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Cure Serious Wounds: Practically the same as Cure Medium Wounds. This is supposed to be an upgrade, but heals only three pathetic Hit Points more. Go for it only if you really need the healing. Druids are better off getting an extra Call Woodland Beings in any case.
I think you've got this and cure medium wounds muddled up. Cure medium wounds heals 3 HP more than cure light wounds. Cure serious wounds cures 6 hp more than cure medium wounds.</font>[/QUOTE]Not true.
CMW cures 14 damage.
CSW cures 17.
17 - 14 = [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

There was also a comment about the Aerial Servant being about as touch as a mountain bear. In fact, the AS is much tougher with 128 HP compared to 70 HP.
Toughness is not all about HP. ;)
We're also talking about AC, resistances, immunities, etc...

Quote:

I've also never understood the fascination with Natures Beauty. They get a +3 bonus to the save or die, and the blindness only affects a tiny 5 foot radius around the caster, so I'm not sure how you disable half the battlefield with this one. It's a good spell, but there are much better 7th level divine spells IMO.
Permanent, unsavle Blindness.
The Area of Effect is not 5 foot - it is as big as Cloudkill, Fireball, etc!!!
AND, it can be cast without breaking invisibility, which is CHEAP, considering the whole idea of the spell... :rolleyes:
The Instakill is just gravy.

Quote:

I'm sure there were other things I was going to comment on but can't remember at the moment. I'll let you know if I think of anything else. Again, nice guide!
Thank you for the great reply.

Alson 11-03-2002 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
]A little nitpick about Spike Traps. They do not affect everybody. The blue guardians in Watcher's Keep level 5 are immuned to them.
Yea, that was supposed to be in.
Will reword.

Quote:

On this page, Liches can and will cast on you with direct-damage spells even if you are totally invisible. This applies to other enemies that can see through invisibility.
Are you 100% sure about this?
I'm quite sure they can't.
The only way to cast a spell on a shimering target is ForceSpell(), which most liches don't use.

Quote:

ADD] The website seems leery of having high resistances, judging from the way it described the various Protection from ~~ spells, but resistances should not be underestimated, and should be highly embraced at all times. Healing from the enemy is a wonderful power tactic, and there is no problem with spell disruption because you can just choose to cast when the enemy is not casting. Remember, if they cannot hurt you, they cannot kill you.
That's because me and Xyx are quite heavy on the offensive playing style.
Littiz is the one that tries to balance it out. [img]smile.gif[/img]
We believe that resistances are usually irrelevent - if they can't see you (aka Mislead(TM)), they can't kill you. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

Pierce Shield was a bit of misinformation as well. It is not a RRoR+Weaker Lower Resistance, but a Secret Word+Lower Resistance. At level 20, both LR and PS lowers the enemy's Magic Resistance by 30%. 3 of these in a Chain Contingency is extremely scary to an enemy Mage. Take out one and throw in a RRoR if the target has Spell Trap.
Dundee, you already know my PoV about spell protections and the like.
I learnt it from Xyx. :D

Quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Protection from Energy
Another very sad spell for its level. Even less effective than its cheaper brothers that at least provide complete resistance. Don't go anywhere near this spell.
I wholely disagree with this. ;) 75% resistance to Fire/Cold/Electricity/Acid/Magic Damage is not to be sniffed at. Combine with the Belt of Inertial Barrier and you heal from Magic Missile/Skull Trap/ADHW. Combine with other equipment, and you gain immunity and healing when possible. This spell should not be underestimated.</font>[/QUOTE]Name 10 enemy mages in a non moded game that use Skull Trap or ADHW. ;)
And MM is usually the last spell in the Mages script.
Littiz is a big fun of this spell, though - maybe we can be slightly less harsh about it.

Quote:

ADD] ADD] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Finger of Death
Save-or-else suffer some minor damage anyway. Go for Polymorph Other if you like insta-kill save-or-else spells, go for Magic Missile if you like damage spells. Either way, save your precious level 7 slots for something good.
He's kidding right? I was slaying Fire Giants and Dragons in ToB with this spell. They key here is Greater Malison.</font>[/QUOTE]IMO, FoD is pathetic.
Nature's Beauty is sorta like an Area of Affect FoD for Druids (Die, or be Blinded and THEN die), and if you're facing Fire Giants, your cleric should have at least one HLA anyway. Deva will slaughter a Fire Giant anyday, and will do soooo much more.

Quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Skeleton Warrior is 90% magic resistant and therefore very effective against spellcasters and Mind Flayers, and allows you to cast area damage spells at the creatures they are engaged with.
Your friend does know that "even if your summon does not get hurt, it will go hostile", right?</font>[/QUOTE]I havn't, either. Are you sure?
I will test it, and if you're right, we'll reword.

Quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Feeblemind
Mediocre save-or-else spell. Leaves one enemy standing around drooling for the rest of the battle, but Polymorph Other already did something like that and Domination does something much more useful.
Mediocre my a**. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Feeblemind is the reason why I managed to kill Abazigal with a Dispel Magic. ;) It has a -2 save penalty, combine with Greater Malison for a -6 penalty. Throw in Doom for a -8 penalty.</font>[/QUOTE]Malison and Doom helps any spell, so it's not an example.
And the cheesy use of it is mentioned. ;)

Quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Protection from Acid
Worthless. Will still not protect you from round-to-round spell disruption from Melf's Acid Arrow. Pretty sad spell for level 6.
Level 5 you mean. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks. As i said - Xyx hates Typos. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Spell Immunity
~~ Versatile spell, may come in handy sometimes. Just don't hold your breath.
Urm... rightttt... SI is one of the best protection spells in the game. I laugh at Kangaxx and all other Liches because of this spell.</font>[/QUOTE]I wholly agree - you know how much i like SI.
I talked to Xyx about it many times, but it's HIS guide, after all.
He has the final word, and he doesn't like it as much as we do.
A matter of style, i guess.

Quote:

I will continue tomorrow.
Can't wait. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Thanks for the reply. I was waiting to hear from you.

Jim 11-03-2002 05:39 PM

"It does provide total immunity to Magic Missiles (though not in Baldur's Gate I or Icewind Dale)"

Quote:

But since this is a BG2 Spell Reference...
I know [img]smile.gif[/img] But it was stated that this spell does not protect from MM in IWD. I was merely saying that it does ;)

Quote:

Cone of Cold: 20D4+20 = Average 42+20 = 62.
Skull Trap: 60D6 = Average 183.
Level 3.
How do you figure 60D6? Skull trap deals 1D6 magic damage per caster level, therefore surely the maximum is 20D6. Now that I think about it, a 20th level skull trap will beat a 20th level cone of cold, but as far as I can see, that's the only one that can for sub level 5 spells.

"It was suggested to take skull trap over sunfire, but sunfire is available by level 9 (so a skull trap would do 9D6 at this equivalent level) and deals 50% more damage than a fireball dealing 15D6 damage! I think sunfire is a very capable spell. There's also no danger of harming the caster like there is for a fireball or skull trap spell."

Quote:

I didn't quite get this one.
Skull Trap is availabe earlier, and deals better damage.
A simple aiming will prevent damaging the caster.
The point I'm trying to make here is that skull trap deals 1D6 per caster level. Level 5 spells first become available at level 9, therefore a level 9 skull trap will deal 9D6 damage. A sunfire cast at the same level will deal 15D6, and hence has much more potential for lower level mages.

Quote:

Not true.
CMW cures 14 damage.
CSW cures 17.
17 - 14 =
My bad. I've been playing too much IWD! Cure moderate only heals 11hp in IWD.

Quote:

Check out the description.
The Manual is wrong - Protecion from Fire (both Arcane and Divine) grants 100% resistance. Havn't checked into the duration part.
Sorry, I worded this wrong. The divine version grants +80% resistance to *magic* fire, the arcane version grants +50% resistance to *magic* fire. Both grant 100% resistance to normal fire. The durations are different, as are the casting times, so these spells are definatley not identical.

Quote:

Toughness is not all about HP.
We're also talking about AC, resistances, immunities, etc...
Aerial servant: AC = 3, HP=128, saving throws: 4,6,5,4,7, resistances: none
Mountain Bear: AC = 6, HP=70, saving throws: 8,10,9,10,11, resistances: none

Hmm, both have equal resistances, but the aerial servant has a better armour class, superior HP and superior saving throws. I still can't agree with the statement that mountain bears are as tough as aerial servants [img]smile.gif[/img] .

I'll have to look into natures beauty if that is the case.

Quote:

Thank you for the great reply.
NP [img]smile.gif[/img] . I'll try and get some more feedback for tommorrow too [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Dundee Slaytern 11-04-2002 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alson:
[QB]Are you 100% sure about this?
I'm quite sure they can't.
The only way to cast a spell on a shimering target is ForceSpell(), which most liches don't use.
I am a nut that does not use PfU scrolls when fighting Liches. I got the scars to prove it. ;)
Quote:

That's because me and Xyx are quite heavy on the offensive playing style.
Littiz is the one that tries to balance it out. [img]smile.gif[/img]
We believe that resistances are usually irrelevent - if they can't see you (aka Mislead(TM)), they can't kill you. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I am a player that believes that a good defense is a good offense too, but even then, one will still need defenses to cover all possible contingencies. Bosses and such will not follow the rules, so unless you enjoy having your a** being exposed to them, best to frustrate them by taunting them with, "Hit me again! Hit me again! I need the healing!". Jim should be able to empathise with me here. ;) Although his one deals with healing from physical damage. ;) :D
Quote:

Dundee, you already know my PoV about spell protections and the like.
I learnt it from Xyx. :D
Even if you dislike using Pierce Shield, at least correct the analogy or people might get the wrong idea that PS will get rid of Spell Trap. Remember, it is remove one level 8 spell and -30% Magic Resistance for a level 20+ Mage.
Quote:

Name 10 enemy mages in a non moded game that use Skull Trap or ADHW. ;)
And MM is usually the last spell in the Mages script.
Littiz is a big fun of this spell, though - maybe we can be slightly less harsh about it.
Hmmmm... Jon Irenicus, Shahagalar, Kangaxx, Suneer, Tolgerias, Lavok, and some more? These are the ones with ADHW, there should be more using Skull Traps. Perhaps it is because I have the Improved Mages/Liches Mod that I love PfEnergy so much, but at least put a footnote to indicate that the value of the spell increases dramatically with Mods.
Quote:

IMO, FoD is pathetic.
Nature's Beauty is sorta like an Area of Affect FoD for Druids (Die, or be Blinded and THEN die), and if you're facing Fire Giants, your cleric should have at least one HLA anyway. Deva will slaughter a Fire Giant anyday, and will do soooo much more.
Try casting Nature's Beauty with a solo Sorcerer or Mage. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img] FoD is not pathetic. It has by default, a -2 saving penalty which is pretty good already. Greater Malison ensures more or less that it will work, but even without Greater Malison, its' success rate is remarkable in SoA->ToB. There is a reason why it has always been a mainstay in my spell lists since the beginning. ;)
Quote:

I havn't, either. Are you sure?
I will test it, and if you're right, we'll reword.
You are talking to a guy who likes to summon 100 Skeleton Warriors and sic them on the enemy. You do not see me casting Incendiary Clouds over them as well do you? ;) This is easily testable, simply cast Ice Storm or any equivalent spell and send in a Skeleton Warrior. They are immuned to cold, but they will still go hostile because the spell was from YOU. This is NOT IWD, summons will go hostile when hit by AoE spells casted by you. The chance to go hostile is not 100%, but akin to 95%.

If this was not the case, I would have long ago abandon ADHW and choose Incendiary Cloud to use in conjunction with Skeleton Warriors.
Quote:

Malison and Doom helps any spell, so it's not an example.
And the cheesy use of it is mentioned. ;)
GM and Doom does help most spells, but as before, even without them, Feeblemind still has a -2 save penalty by default.
Quote:

I wholly agree - you know how much i like SI.
I talked to Xyx about it many times, but it's HIS guide, after all.
He has the final word, and he doesn't like it as much as we do.
A matter of style, i guess.
I can empathise with that, since people think I am crazy to exclude Breach from my SSSL. ;)
Quote:

Can't wait. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Thanks for the reply. I was waiting to hear from you.
No problem, although the greatest obstacle will be to settle the clash of opinions. ;)
--------
Quote:

Resist Fear
A surprisingly useful area spell. Protects the whole party from a disabling effect for a long time. has a specific use to counter Symbol, Fear (very popular among enemy Mages), Horror, and Dragon or Demon Fear abilities. Watch out for panicked party members running out of its area of effect. Leave this to priests; they get it cheaper.
And I say not. ;) Or at least not for pre-battle buffs. Resist Fear lasts for one hour, Remove Fear lasts for 2 turns. Big difference. Remove Fear is more akin to a battle spell, to be used in the midst of battle. Resist Fear is much superior as a pre-battle buff.
Quote:

Flame Arrow
An excellent single target damage spell, comparable to Melf's Acid Arrow.
This is like saying a M-16 is comparable to a Berreta. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

For a level 20+ Mage, Melf's Acid Arrow deals 14-56 Acid Damage in seven rounds. "Compare" this to Flame Arrow which does 4-24 Piercing Damage + 16-96 Fire Damage, 2-12 PiDmg + 8-48 FiDmg if target saves vs spells. 3 of these in a Spell Sequencer means KO to a Beholder or an Elder Orb.
Quote:

Melf's Minute Meteors
A truly wonderful spell. Thrown at the rate of five per round. The damage comes in three parts: normal, the +3 magical bonus, and 3 fire damage. This causes them to remove three Stoneskins per hit, ~~
I am not 100% sure, but judging from the MMMs that enemy Mages throw at me, it only removes one skin per hit.
Quote:

Spellstrike
The ultimate magic shield removal but not a serious improvement on its level 8 counterpart Ruby Ray. Most enemies cast a single spell protection at a time. That plus the easy workarounds make this a waste of a level 9 slot. Spell Shield will stop this.
Actually, Spellstrike is much sadder than that, because RRoR is only level 7. ;)
Quote:

Summon Planetar
~~ A one-creature-army and the best first pick for solo mages.
Personal opinion, but best second pick I would say. Improved Alacrity at level 18 does a whole lot more than Summon Planetar. ;)

Oh, and I agree with Jim. List out all the save penalties to avoid confusion. Correct ones can be in black. I will go through the Divine List another time.

Alson 11-04-2002 11:25 AM

The big brother is listening! :D

I refered Xyx to your feedback, guys.
Here is his reply:
Quote:

Xyx's Email to Alson:
OK, could read it now. Lessee... Good feedback! I've included my comments
here. Relay to them what you wish.

This was from Jim:

"It seems that you've mentioned the saving throw bonus/penalty that some spells give, but not all of them. In order to make the guide consistent, I'd suggest mentioning all the saving throw modifiers for applicable spells."

Won't do. That would be totally redundant since it merely duplicates the
manual. The reason SOME saves ARE mentioned is to emphasize the
use[ful/less]ness of particular spells.

"There was a comment about the use any item ability, to allow a thief to use Carsomyr, Human Flesh, Ring of Gaxx, Amulet of Seradine to provide 90% MR. I know these items were only given as examples, but Carsomyr grants 50% MR, not +50% MR, so you can see the MR stack only if you equip the Carsomyr first, then the other items, but the first time you actually use Carsomyr, its 50% MR will be applied and override any other bonuses (apart from innate MR), so this combination won't actually give 90% MR."

This I don't get. If you start off with Carsomyr, you get 90%, right? So what
is he talking about?

"The above comment about Charisma is a little vague. This discount depends
entirely on the actual CHA value. Discounts stop advancing after a CHA of 20,
with 20 giving the maximum discount of 25%.

Example (prices in brackets reflect percentage discount):
Staff of Rynn +4, Base cost: 22275
16 CHA = 21060 (5%)
17 CHA = 19980 (10%)
18 CHA= 18900 (15%)
19 CHA= 17820 (20%)
20 CHA= 16605 (25%)"


Is this true? I've never been able to get another discount than 10%, even with
24 Charisma.

"Sword Spiders have 5 attacks per round, not 4 as was referenced by the spider spawn spell (as creatures they have 4 APR base, but have permament haste)."

Good point. In it goes.

"Cone of Cold was referenced as above, but name another spell that deals upto
20D4+20 damage for level 5"


Skull Trap. Same average, only level 3.

"It was suggested to take skull trap over sunfire, but sunfire is available by level 9 (so a skull trap would do 9D6 at this equivalent level) and deals 50%
more damage than a fireball dealing 15D6 damage! I think sunfire is a very capable spell. There's also no danger of harming the caster like there is for a
fireball or skull trap spell."


What's this "9D6 is 50% more than 15d6" business?

"I wouldn't refer to Protection from Acid as "Worthless" since it makes one
particular engagement in the game much easier and it lasts an age (upto 20
turns)."


Noted. Plus a spoiler disclaimer on the home page. =D

"This is a tiny nitpick, but it's not possible to have rep of less than 1."

Noted. Xyx hates typos indeed. =D

"There was also a comment about the Aerial Servant being about as touch as a
mountain bear. In fact, the AS is much tougher with 128 HP compared to 70 HP."


Indeed, hit points aren't everything. In my admittedly limited testing, the
mountain bear kicked the crap out of the Aerial Servant about half the time.
Now that I check them out with Near Infinity, I do indeed get the clear
impression that the bears were just lucky. The Servant is WAY better.

"I've also never understood the fascination with Natures Beauty. They get a +3 bonus to the save or die, and the blindness only affects a tiny 5 foot radius
around the caster, so I'm not sure how you disable half the battlefield with
this one. It's a good spell, but there are much better 7th level divine spells
IMO."


The possibility of this being true shocked me so much that I went ahead and
verified it. Lined up a dozen hobgoblin archers and cast Nature's Beauty. Half
was killed, and those that were in the "kill range" that lived were ALL blinded.

This is from Dundee:

"A little nitpick about Spike Traps. They do not affect everybody. The blue
guardians in Watcher's Keep level 5 are immuned to them."


Noted.

"Liches can and will cast on you with direct-damage spells even if you are
totally invisible. This applies to other enemies that can see through
invisibility."


This kind of figures, but I made a tiny mention about it.

"ADD] The website seems leery of having high resistances, judging from the way it described the various Protection from ~~ spells, but resistances should not be underestimated, and should be highly embraced at all times. Healing from the enemy is a wonderful power tactic, and there is no problem with spell disruption because you can just choose to cast when the enemy is not casting. Remember, if they cannot hurt you, they cannot kill you."

Enemies that totally depend on one type of elemental damage are pretty rare...
Stuff like dragons does elemental damage and physical damage, spellcasters do a
wide variety of elemental damages, and you never know which one comes first.

Then Alson says this: "me and Xyx are quite heavy on the offensive playing
style."

I'm not too heavy on the offensive style, I just think that there are better
ways to spend a level 8 spell slot than PARTIAL protection against SOME of your
opponents attacks. FULL protection is great, I give you that, but full
protection is hard to get since it usually requires physical protections as
well. OK, maybe if you have a stack of Protections from Magical Weapons lined
up... Will reword slightly (again).

"Pierce Shield was a bit of misinformation as well. It is not a RRoR+Weaker
Lower Resistance, but a Secret Word+Lower Resistance. At level 20, both LR and
PS lowers the enemy's Magic Resistance by 30%. 3 of these in a Chain Contingency
is extremely scary to an enemy Mage. Take out one and throw in a RRoR if the
target has Spell Trap."


This I don't get. Besides wondering why you'd need to remove an enemy Spell
Trap or lower a mage's resistance, why Secret Word instead of Ruby Ray of
Reversal?

"[about Protection from Energy] I wholely disagree with this. 75% resistance to Fire/Cold/Electricity/Acid/Magic Damage is not to be sniffed at. Combine with
the Belt of Inertial Barrier and you heal from Magic Missile/Skull Trap/ADHW.
Combine with other equipment, and you gain immunity and healing when possible.
This spell should not be underestimated."


Let's just say I like Simulacrum and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting a LOT better.
If you really need to buff up before a fight, use several of the lower level
ones.

"[about Finger of Death] He's kidding right? I was slaying Fire Giants and
Dragons in ToB with this spell. They key here is Greater Malison."


No, he's not kidding. Compare this to the payload of a Project Image and the
difference should be obvious. Besides, Polymorph Other is a pretty viable and
MUCH cheaper alternative if you're going to use Greater Malison.

"[about Raise Dead] Your friend does know that "even if your summon does not get hurt, it will go hostile", right?"

No, he doesn't. In fact, he was so shocked by the possibility this could be so
that he decided to verify it on the spot. Skull Trapped two Skeleton Warriors.
One got hit and turned hostile, the other was unaffected and stayed friendly.

"[about Feeblemind] Mediocre my a**. Feeblemind is the reason why I managed to kill Abazigal with a Dispel Magic. It has a -2 save penalty, combine with
Greater Malison for a -6 penalty. Throw in Doom for a -8 penalty."


Mediocre because one spell at a lower level does about the same, and one spell
at the same level does something better.

Some people seem to think that every spell is good "since you can combine with
Greater Malison". Does that make every spell good, or just Greater Malison?

"[about Protection from Acid] Level 5 you mean."

Oops. Good catch. Xyx hates typos. [img]smile.gif[/img]

"[about Spell Immunity] Urm... rightttt... SI is one of the best protection
spells in the game. I laugh at Kangaxx and all other Liches because of this
spell."


Well, how many Kangaxxes do you meet? And what's so useful against other
liches? Protecting against their Symbol, Symbol, Symbol sequence?

Back to Jim...

"[about Shield] it was stated that this spell does not protect from MM in IWD. I was merely saying that it does"

Ah. Noted. I don't have IWD, alas.

"a level 9 skull trap will deal 9D6 damage. A sunfire cast at the same level
will deal 15D6"


Where'd he get that idea? A level 9 Sunfire does 9d6 damage.

"The divine version grants +80% resistance to *magic* fire, the arcane version grants +50% resistance to *magic* fire. Both grant 100% resistance to normal fire. The durations are different, as are the casting times, so these spells are definatley not identical."

Ah, noted. Certainly not identical. There's no magic fire damage that I know
of, though. =D

Great feedback! These guys have my thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Xyx
[ 11-04-2002, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Dundee Slaytern 11-04-2002 11:32 AM

Quote:

Armor of Faith
Effective for a level 1 spell, especially at higher levels. Its fast casting time allows for casting in between attacks. Good for front liners. Note that this spell sets resistance and is not cumulative with items.
Judging by my Cavalier, it does stack with other items.
Quote:

Doom
Very minor effect, but no save. Do not have your Clerics or Druids waste their spellcasting opportunities on this, but since it casts fast, Paladins and Rangers could cast one in between attacks when fighting big monsters. Note that Doom does not ignore magic resistance.
Erm... I get the impressive that your friend is not utilising the full potential of all the spells by being so negative towards those that allow a saving throw. Doom is one of the level one spell for a Priest. A -2 penalty to THACO, AC and saving throws is an excellent bargain for a fast casting level one spell.
Quote:

Resist Fire/Cold
A sad spell, even though priests have plenty of slots to burn at level 2. Gives only 50% resistance (which is no good) and does not last long enough to conveniently cast in between battles.
Gah! His apathy to elemental resistances bugs me. [img]tongue.gif[/img] It was because of this spell that my Cavalier could laugh at many a Fire-Breathing Dragon or stand in a pit of lava while fighting Fire Giants. It is not the most fantastic spell out there, but it is useful, and not a sad spell.
Quote:

Cure Medium Wounds
Upgrage to Cure Light Wounds, but still not very exciting. Do not use in combat (or at all...).
Typo, "Upgrade".
Quote:

Miscast Magic
Enemy spellcaster scripts will not be aware of an 80% spell failure effect and happily keep trying to cast. Rather limited use and not spectacular.
Erm... 80% spell failure is good... Not as fantastic as Insect Plague or Creeping Doom, but those are level 5 and 7 spells respectively. For a level 3 spell, this spell is effective.
Quote:

Remove Curse
The only way to actually get cursed in this game is being stupid enough to equip a cursed item. Rather inexcusable. Druids are spared this spell.
I do not suppose he gambles with the Cambion? The only reason why I carry around a scroll of Remove Curse for my Sorcerer. ;)
Quote:

Zone of Sweet Air
Stationary area damage is easily turned against your enemies because of your vastly superior tactical insights... Right? Be grateful when someone casts Cloudkill, do not get rid of it. Clerics and Jaheira only, for some strange reason.
I prefer to get rid of them actually. ;) Incendiary Clouds, Death Fog, and their ilk are quite a PITA. I usually memorise one.
Quote:

Animal Summoning I
The lowliest of the divine summons. Not very impressive, but still fodder. An added bonus is that friendly fire does not turn the animals hostile.
Friendly fire will turn the animals hostile.
Quote:

Aerial Servant
Starts out invisible and is much tougher than a single Mountain Bear. Its invisibility and immunity to normal weapons make it extra useful in specific situations (such as fighting Mind Flayers). An excellent spell. Clerics only.
Eh? You got the "much tougher than a single Mountain Bear" right, but... two things.

1) They are not invisible
2) They suck against Mind Flayers
Quote:

Regeneration
Not an awe-inspiring healing spell. The advantage of Regeneration over other healing spells is that it can be cast before you get hurt, but the duration is a bit short and the damage healed is less than fantastic. This spell is not in the manual.
Regeneration is possibly one of the cheesiest spells ever! If you have it active and haste yourself... you practically become a Slayer without the danger and reputation loss! Combine with the Ring of Gaxx for more oodles of cheese sticks! :D
Quote:

Summon Deva
The ultimate clerical summon. Calls forth a powerful Solar armed with a mace that destroys undead, dispels magic and Stuns on a hit. The thing's fighting ability compares to that of a level 10 Fighter, has good magic resistance and is immune to various elemental damages, insta-kill effects ~~
The "insta-kill" effect only applies to Undead.

Alson 11-04-2002 11:36 AM

Another Email from Xyx!
Spell Reference is updated, BTW. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

Xyx's second Email:
Ah, more feedback to respond to...

Dundee says:

"Even if you dislike using Pierce Shield, at least correct the analogy or people might get the wrong idea that PS will get rid of Spell Trap. Remember, it is remove one level 8 spell and -30% Magic Resistance for a level 20+ Mage."

He must be confused by the Staff of the Magi. That Spell Trap is undispellable
by Pierce Shield or Ruby Ray of Reversal. The memorized one goes down
perfectly. I reworded the Staff of the Magi note a little.

"[about Protection from Energy] Jon Irenicus, Shahagalar, Kangaxx, Suneer,
Tolgerias, Lavok, and some more? These are the ones with ADHW, there should be
more using Skull Traps."


Alson said "name TEN mages". ;) Besides, I can't remember anyone but Lavok cast
Horrid Wilting myself, and I remember only liches casting Skull Trap, after 15
other spells. Must be the mods he has installed.

"FoD is not pathetic. It has by default, a -2 saving penalty which is pretty
good already. Greater Malison ensures more or less that it will work, but even
without Greater Malison, its' success rate is remarkable in SoA->ToB."


There's some mythical aura about spells that people have gotten lucky with one
or two times against dragons. The idea is apparently that if it takes down a
dragon in one casting, it must be the best spell ever. Luck, for some reason,
suddenly has nothing to do with it anymore.

Greater Malison FAR FROM ensures that it will work, since it still leaves the
average dragon (save vs Spells 5) with 50% chance of making the save (and that's
not even including magic resistance).

All this spell has over Polymorph Others is the -2 save penalty and some
pathetic damage. I don't consider that a good trade for THREE levels
difference.

Does he use clones much? I'm currently reading through the ToB part of
Elmonster's Journal, and he writes that, halfway through ToB, he's going to
memorize Project Image for the very first time. He's obviously someone who has
a way with spells, but somehow he never realized the potential of cloning.

"You are talking to a guy who likes to summon 100 Skeleton Warriors and sic them on the enemy. You do not see me casting Incendiary Clouds over them as well do you? This is easily testable, simply cast Ice Storm or any equivalent spell and send in a Skeleton Warrior. They are immuned to cold, but they will still go hostile because the spell was from YOU. This is NOT IWD, summons will go hostile when hit by AoE spells casted by you. The chance to go hostile is not 100%, but akin to 95%."

Well, I tried AGAIN. Summoned three Skeleton Warriors and cast three Skull
Traps at them. One got damaged and turned hostile, the others made all their
magic resistance checks and stayed friendly.

I think he's confusing magic resistance with damage resistance here. If you do
zero damage to a summon, it DOES turn hostile. When it makes a magic resistance
check, you don't even do the zero damage.

I missed it when Alson said: "I wholly agree - you know how much i like SI.
I talked to Xyx about it many times, but it's HIS guide, after all.
He has the final word, and he doesn't like it as much as we do."

I DO like Spell Immunity A LOT. I just don't think that one mage in a full
party has a use for it day in day out. Making one guy immune to 10% of the
spells you get thrown at you is, well, not super. I'll reword it, though.

"people think I am crazy to exclude Breach from my SSSL."

"Super Sorcerer Spell List"? But he's right. Who needs Breach? Handy but easy
to work around (all you need is a little patience =D).

"Resist Fear lasts for one hour, Remove Fear lasts for 2 turns."

Whoa, good point! Will change.

"[about comparing Flame Arrow to Melf's Acid Arrow] This is like saying a M-16 is comparable to a Berreta."

Will change.

"I am not 100% sure, but judging from the MMMs that enemy Mages throw at me, it only removes one skin per hit."

Damn, it's true. =D Shows you gotta personally verify everything people claim.
Reworded (plus I mentioned the weight).

"RRoR is only level 7."

Damn, I must've been sleeping. [img]smile.gif[/img]

"List out all the save penalties to avoid confusion."

Redundant. I'd rather take most of them out. Still, if anyone cares to provide
me with a 100% accurate and complete list of save modifiers, I'll put it in.

Keep the feedback coming! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Xyx

Alson 11-04-2002 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
Eh? You got the "much tougher than a single Mountain Bear" right, but... two things.

1) They are not invisible
2) They suck against Mind Flayers


Check out the latest Email about Bears Vs. Servants. ;)

]The "insta-kill" effect only applies to Undead.

We meant, immune to Insta-kill effects. Read the whole sentence. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Dundee Slaytern 11-04-2002 12:06 PM

Quote:

This I don't get. If you start off with Carsomyr, you get 90%, right? So what is he talking about?
You start off with 90%, but the moment you swing your weapon and hit the enemy, it resets to 50%. Annoying, but there you go.
Quote:

This I don't get. Besides wondering why you'd need to remove an enemy Spell Trap or lower a mage's resistance, why Secret Word instead of Ruby Ray of Reversal?
It is not inconceivable that one can complete the game without Pierce Shield, and I do agree that RRoR is better most of the time, but the description of Pierce Shield is misleading and should at least be corrected.

Assuming a level 20 Mage,

Pierce Shield remove one spell protection of level 8 or lower and lowers the target's Magic Resistance by 30%. RRoR removes one spell protection of level 9 or lower. Ergo, Pierce Shield is not <font color="white">RRoR + Weaker Lower Resistance</font>. Pierce Shield is <font color="white">Improved Secret Word + Lower Resistance</font>. Improved Secret Word because it ignores Globe of Invulnerability.
Quote:

Let's just say I like Simulacrum and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting a LOT better. If you really need to buff up before a fight, use several of the lower level ones.
Heh, heh. Different styles of playing I guess, especially since I dislike Simulacrum. ;) It does have its' uses though, especially since the caster's base resistances are not always 0%.
Quote:

No, he's not kidding. Compare this to the payload of a Project Image and the difference should be obvious. Besides, Polymorph Other is a pretty viable and MUCH cheaper alternative if you're going to use Greater Malison.
That same Project Image can still shoot out 4+ FoDs if it should so desire. After all, you and I both know that the PI illusion is free anyway. ;) Polymorph Other cannot compare to FoD as enemies have outrageous saves against Polymorph. They tend to have sad saves against spells though. Weird, but there you go.
Quote:

No, he doesn't. In fact, he was so shocked by the possibility this could be so that he decided to verify it on the spot. Skull Trapped two Skeleton Warriors. One got hit and turned hostile, the other was unaffected and stayed friendly.
My bad, I just tested myself and verified. I concede on this point.
Quote:

Mediocre because one spell at a lower level does about the same, and one spell at the same level does something better.
Some people seem to think that every spell is good "since you can combine with Greater Malison". Does that make every spell good, or just Greater Malison?
If you are referring to Polymorph Other, refer to my above comments regarding FoD. Feeblemind uses the save vs spell roll. Polymorph Other uses the save vs petrification/polymorph roll. Enemies tend to have much worse saves vs spell then polymorph. As for the latter, not every spell is good, but certain spells become exceptionally good when combined with Greater Malison. On their own, they are still good.
Quote:

Well, how many Kangaxxes do you meet? And what's so useful against other
liches? Protecting against their Symbol, Symbol, Symbol sequence?
Protecting against their Wail of Banshee, total immunity to their Flame Arrows and Melf's Acid Arrows( Mirror Image is not 100% guaranteed ;) ), immunity to their Flesh to Stone, etc... These are the Liches, we also have to deal with traps that spit out horrifying spells like Maze or Imprisonment. Then we have the general-type enemy Mage that loves to cast Evocation spells. Spell Immunity generally has a use in all fights that involves hostile spellcasting.

----

Thanks for going through the trouble of reviewing our comments.

Dundee Slaytern 11-04-2002 12:30 PM

Quote:

He must be confused by the Staff of the Magi. That Spell Trap is undispellable by Pierce Shield or Ruby Ray of Reversal. The memorized one goes down perfectly. I reworded the Staff of the Magi note a little.
I see. I will have to give Pierce Shield more credit then.
Quote:

Alson said "name TEN mages". ;) Besides, I can't remember anyone but Lavok cast Horrid Wilting myself, and I remember only liches casting Skull Trap, after 15 other spells. Must be the mods he has installed.
I am referring to unmodded encounters. ;) Were I to include modded encounters, my list would be much, much, longer.
Quote:

There's some mythical aura about spells that people have gotten lucky with one or two times against dragons. The idea is apparently that if it takes down a dragon in one casting, it must be the best spell ever. Luck, for some reason, suddenly has nothing to do with it anymore.

Greater Malison FAR FROM ensures that it will work, since it still leaves the average dragon (save vs Spells 5) with 50% chance of making the save (and that's not even including magic resistance).

All this spell has over Polymorph Others is the -2 save penalty and some pathetic damage. I don't consider that a good trade for THREE levels difference.

Does he use clones much? I'm currently reading through the ToB part of Elmonster's Journal, and he writes that, halfway through ToB, he's going to memorize Project Image for the very first time. He's obviously someone who has a way with spells, but somehow he never realized the potential of cloning.
I am flattered, but... I am not the guy behind Elmonster. ;) As for cloning, I use it a lot. Alson knows about my PRATI cheese.

As I have mentioned in my earlier reply, Polymorph Other works differently from Feeblemind and Finger of Death. They use different saving throws to determine the success of the spell. As a result, Polymorph Other suffers badly in ToB, but Feeblemind and FoD continues to work well.

One of these days I should only cast FoD at a Dragon though, they do not usually survive to get hit by the level 4 spells... too many level 1-3 spells hitting them. I would garner that my success rate with sniping with FoD is around 75%, which is very good odds already.

If you want to talk about luck though... there was this one time where I slayed a Mind Flayer with a Chromatic Orb, and another time, a Pit Fiend. Now THAT, is luck.
Quote:

"Super Sorcerer Spell List"? But he's right. Who needs Breach? Handy but easy to work around (all you need is a little patience =D).
Solo Sorcerer Spell List, it has a cousin, the PartySSL( PSSL). Speaking of which, I should update it to reflect changes needed for mods.

Dundee Slaytern 11-04-2002 12:53 PM

I must say though, this "old" dog is learning new tricks and being enlighted on several ones as well.

Here's one from me regarding Khelben's Warding Whip. It is a little known fact that KWW disrupts a Mage's spellcasting when its' grayish sphere appears. It is possible to totally wreck a Mage's spellcasting by bombarding him with KWWs.

Alson 11-04-2002 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
I must say though, this "old" dog is learning new tricks and being enlighted on several ones as well.
I am so happy to hear that, Dundee.
That's the point behind the Spell Reference (well, IMO at least... It was Xyx who started it) - it is suited for the "fresh meat" and for the "old dogs" alike. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

Here's one from me regarding Khelben's Warding Whip. It is a little known fact that KWW disrupts a Mage's spellcasting when its' grayish sphere appears. It is possible to totally wreck a Mage's spellcasting by bombarding him with KWWs.
Or bombarding him with Magic Missile. Or Insect Plague. Or Creeping Doom. Or Power Word : Blind. Or Nature's Beauty. Or Skull Traps. Or... Well, you get my drift... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Enemy Mages are easy once you know your spells.
That's why i like the Improved Mages so much. They are soooo much better. Cast&Attack with MMM's was never so scary... ;)

Zarr 11-04-2002 06:09 PM

Just got round to reading the spells guide finally(I've been meaning to for a while but haven't had the time) and I must say a job well done to all those involved! This guide has inspired me to try a few spells I've never used before. I've bookmarked this site, once again well done!

Dundee Slaytern 11-05-2002 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alson:
Or bombarding him with Magic Missile. Or Insect Plague. Or Creeping Doom. Or Power Word : Blind. Or Nature's Beauty. Or Skull Traps. Or... Well, you get my drift... [img]tongue.gif[/img] ~~
Yeah, but I thought you might want to include that quirk in your description of KWW. No other counterspell does this, at least none that I know of.

Alson 11-05-2002 01:44 PM

Listening to Xyx and Dundee debating about spells is something i wanted to see a long time ago... *My* best spells debates were with those two. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Xyx strikes back:

Quote:

Another Email from Xyx:

Dundee spake thus:

"I get the impressive that your friend is not utilising the full potential of
all the spells by being so negative towards those that allow a saving throw.
Doom is one of the level one spell for a Priest. A -2 penalty to THACO, AC and
saving throws is an excellent bargain for a fast casting level one spell."


Spells with saves have the following drawbacks:
- They're nothing but wasted time if the save is made (saves in ToB: 5-10).
- They cause effects that most bosses have cheesy immunities against.

Doom is probably the best spell at its level, and I'll give it that little more
credit, but that says more about the other level 1 priest spells than Doom. I
don't see how one measly 2-point save penalty compares to the big guns. It's
only a 10% increase of the effectiveness of SOME of your future spells. I guess
I'm more a fan of immediate effect. Sure, if you plan to cast a dozen Polymorph
Others, Feebleminds and Disintegrates at one specific creature, then Doom is
great. Somehow, a strategy like that doesn't appeal to me.

"[about Resist Fire/Cold] Gah! His apathy to elemental resistances bugs me. It was because of this spell that my Cavalier could laugh at many a Fire-Breathing Dragon or stand in a pit of lava while fighting Fire Giants. It is not the most fantastic spell out there, but it is useful, and not a sad spell."

"MANY a fire-breathing dragon"? I can think of, what is it, two? One of which
you don't have to fight (Firkraag), and the other you don't even have to meet
for any reason (Saladrex). Please let me know if I missed any. Fighting fire
giants whilst standing in pits of lava doesn't sound like an everyday occurence
either.

This description was written before I ever heard of ToB, so it's a bit outdated.
I'll admit that this spell is not COMPLETELY useless anymore. I'll update a
bit.

"[about Cure Medium Wounds] Typo, "Upgrade"."

Good. Xyx hates typos.

"[about Miscast Magic] For a level 3 spell, this spell is effective."

Uhm. Compare this to Hold Person. That works on more creatures, has an area
(tiny as it may be) and paralyzes creatures (they can't do anything, you get
free hits). Hold Person is only a level 2 spell. How often do you use that?

"[about Remove Curse] I do not suppose he gambles with the Cambion?"

Ah, excuse me. Pre-ToB writing. Will reword.

"[about Animal Summoning I] Friendly fire will turn the animals hostile."

Don't know where I got that. More proof that everything has to be personally
verified. X( Removed.

"[about Aerial Servant] 1) They are not invisible
2) They suck against Mind Flayers"


1) They are. They have an undroppable Ring of Invisibility. Try it.

2) Indeed. I must've been confusing them with Invisible Stalkers. Removed.

"Regeneration is possibly one of the cheesiest spells ever!"

We do list the cheese (General Spell Info section, under "Regeneration"), but I
dare say clones, triggers and Nahal's Reckless Dweomer are a TAD cheesier.

"Pierce Shield remove one spell protection of level 8 or lower"

Nope. Removes one spell protection period, up to and including Spell Trap, just
like Ruby Ray of Reversal. Try it (like I did) and be amazed.

"you and I both know that the PI illusion is free anyway."

Unless he's referring to the Spell Trap tricks, no, I don't know. I'd like to
hear, though. =D

"Protecting against their Wail of Banshee, total immunity to their Flame Arrows and Melf's Acid Arrows( Mirror Image is not 100% guaranteed ), immunity to their Flesh to Stone, etc... These are the Liches, we also have to deal with traps that spit out horrifying spells like Maze or Imprisonment. Then we have the general-type enemy Mage that loves to cast Evocation spells. Spell Immunity
generally has a use in all fights that involves hostile spellcasting."


Uhm. This seems to imply casting some half dozen Spell Immunities before every
fight. How do you fight off a lich with a single Spell Immunity?

"I am not the guy behind Elmonster. As for cloning, I use it a lot. Alson knows about my PRATI cheese."

I was merely pointing out that Kevin Dorner, the guy behind Elmonster, seemed,
for all his BG2 prowess, oblivious to the awesome power of cloning. ;) (Whoa,
run-on sentence!)

What's "PRATI" cheese? Sounds tasty. =D

// Alson: I fail to see the cheese, but PRATI stands for Project Image, Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, Time Stop and Improved Alacrity. Just beacuse it's powerful doesn't mean it's cheese. :D [img]tongue.gif[/img]

"I would garner that my success rate with sniping with FoD is around 75%, which is very good odds already."

Considering the average dragon has 60% magic resistance and a save of 5, that is
very unlikely even after a couple of Lower Resistances, a Greater Malison and a
Doom. Not impossible, just very unlikely.

"It is a little known fact that KWW disrupts a Mage's spellcasting when its'
grayish sphere appears. It is possible to totally wreck a Mage's spellcasting by
bombarding him with KWWs."


Sounds like fun, but I can't get it to work. Can you guys reproduce this?

// Alson: I have no means of testing. Dundee? Would you mind?

Keep sending in the feedback. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh, and the Ref has of course been updated. Still no real changes to the
History (same date, only minor rewordings and corrections).

Cheers,
Xyx

Dundee Slaytern 11-06-2002 07:15 AM

Quote:

Spells with saves have the following drawbacks:
- They're nothing but wasted time if the save is made (saves in ToB: 5-10).
- They cause effects that most bosses have cheesy immunities against.

Doom is probably the best spell at its level, and I'll give it that little more credit, but that says more about the other level 1 priest spells than Doom. I don't see how one measly 2-point save penalty compares to the big guns. It's only a 10% increase of the effectiveness of SOME of your future spells. I guess I'm more a fan of immediate effect. Sure, if you plan to cast a dozen Polymorph Others, Feebleminds and Disintegrates at one specific creature, then Doom is great. Somehow, a strategy like that doesn't appeal to me.
What is your playing style then? I am what some may consider to be a speedcaster. "Normal" fights for me last no more than 3 rounds( the duration of Time Stop). The key to most of my strategy is to bombard the enemy with so many spells, that even if the enemy saves or avoids some of them, the majority will still hit the enemy. It is not uncommon for my Project Image to be almost depleted after one round of Time Stop.

Some players advocate the usage of high-level, heavy-duty spells to cast on the enemy, but they tend to have long casting times. The majority of my offensive spells have a casting time of 0 after you factor in the Robe of Vecna and the Amulet of Power. Thus, I can flood out all my level 1-7 spells( and certain level 9 ones) and still have time to cast my level 8 ones( usually about 4 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting). In addition, were this to be my real Sorcerer doing the casting, you can also include all the Sequencers and pre-stored Contingencies.

To cut a long story short, I cast the fast spells first, then cast the slow spells. Chain Lightning, Finger of Death, Dragon's Breath, Wish, etc... are all above level 5, but still have a casting time of 0 due to their low base casting time. Throw a stone at a guy, and he will most likely live. Throw a hundred stones at the same guy... and he will most likely die.
Quote:

"MANY a fire-breathing dragon"? I can think of, what is it, two? One of which you don't have to fight (Firkraag), and the other you don't even have to meet for any reason (Saladrex). Please let me know if I missed any. Fighting fire giants whilst standing in pits of lava doesn't sound like an everyday occurence either.

This description was written before I ever heard of ToB, so it's a bit outdated. I'll admit that this spell is not COMPLETELY useless anymore. I'll update a bit.
Well, I do play the game multiple times. ;) Firkragg is an evil creature and should be elimated for the good of the land, and rare few will insist on skipping him( although the player is free to choose whatever he wants). Same goes for Saladrex, who holds a component to the most damaging weapon in the game. Resist Fire/Cold can see more action than just these fights though. The Guardians in Firkragg's dungeon is where Fire Resistance will come in handy as well, the Twisted Rune's Mage casts Meteor Swarm, Fire-based Traps, Imix in Yaga Shura's Stronghold, etc... ...

True, it is not necessary all the time, but it is handy when it is needed.
Quote:

Uhm. Compare this to Hold Person. That works on more creatures, has an area (tiny as it may be) and paralyzes creatures (they can't do anything, you get free hits). Hold Person is only a level 2 spell. How often do you use that?
Miscast Magic has a -2 penalty to save, Hold Person does not have a save penalty at all. Both have a casting time of 5, and assuming the Priest's version, both last for 1 turn. Miscast Magic can also be used on Undead, Dragons, and any creature larger than a humanoid, whereas Hold Person is ignored by them.

As an early Anti-Spellcaster spell, Miscast Magic is superior.
Quote:

1) They are. They have an undroppable Ring of Invisibility. Try it.
Do they? Do they use it then? Everytime I summon an Aerial Servant, the enemy can see them without fail. Do I have to activate the ring myself?
Quote:

Nope. Removes one spell protection period, up to and including Spell Trap, just like Ruby Ray of Reversal. Try it (like I did) and be amazed.
I stand corrected.
Quote:

Unless he's referring to the Spell Trap tricks, no, I don't know. I'd like to hear, though. =D
You already know about it, ;) it is listed on your website. The Wish method. Sorcerers have an easier time utilising the Wish cheese because they can spam Wish with minimal effort. A Mage has to memorise several Wishes to even try to equal the Sorcerer in spamming Wishes, so the Spell Trap method is much better for the Mage. Sorcerers have to be careful what they choose for their spells, and Wish will help them more the Spell Trap, so it is better for them to use the Wish method.
Quote:

Uhm. This seems to imply casting some half dozen Spell Immunities before every fight. How do you fight off a lich with a single Spell Immunity?
Ah... but that is not the case. ;) Listen to what the Lich says as it casts its' spell, and observe the animation. This will enable you to know what is the school of magic that this spell is from, and allow you to cast Spell Immunity properly. With the Robe of Vecna and the Amulet of Power, casting Spell Immunity is instantaneous.

To defeat a Lich, I just need a good old sling( usually the Sling of Everand), some resistance spells( using Contingencies), and Spell Immunity. The robe and amulet are taken for granted of course, since you can easily get them in Chapter 2.
Quote:

What's "PRATI" cheese? Sounds tasty. =D
Hard to describe in words. It has to be seen to be believed.

Here are some screenshots of the tactic in action with a Necromancer before I incorporated Project Image into it,

http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/ds_s...l/Gromnir.html
Quote:

Considering the average dragon has 60% magic resistance and a save of 5, that is very unlikely even after a couple of Lower Resistances, a Greater Malison and a Doom. Not impossible, just very unlikely.
That is assuming all the enemies are hulking, brooding Dragons wanting to devour your soul. ;) For the majority of fights, the enemy has no Magic Resistance, and average saves. On a side-note, success with a Dragon is easier than you think. ;) Chromatic Orbs have +6 bonus save, but the Dragon can only roll so many good saves before it fails. Polymorph is not the easiest, but whenever I have tried, it takes only at most, 4 tries before the Dragon is reduced to a squeaking squirrel. The odds become even better when I use Finger of Death or Feeblemind. It is 50/50, very good odds.
Quote:

Sounds like fun, but I can't get it to work. Can you guys reproduce this?
// Alson: I have no means of testing. Dundee? Would you mind?
Hmmmm... just tested and got disappointed. Looks like ToB has fixed it. Dang. :(

Alson 11-06-2002 12:42 PM

Quote:

Xyx:
Dundee spaketh:

"What is your playing style then?"

Bashing stuff with the Flail of Ages, mostly. =D
// Alson: Amen to that. Long live Fury and Ages. :D

"As an early Anti-Spellcaster spell, Miscast Magic is superior."

Obviously a matter of taste, but how good is an anti-mage spell that gets
deflected, nullified or even bounced back by every spell protection out there
(as opposed to Hold Person, which is only nullified by the Globes)? Not that I
think Hold Person is that great, mind you. The main reason I don't like Miscast
Magic is that it's plain weak. Holy Smite and Animate Dead are such great
spells in comparison, probably even against mages.
// Alson: I agree with Xyx, here. I don't like Miscast, either.

"Everytime I summon an Aerial Servant, the enemy can see them without fail."

Try casting Farsight and CLUAing one (servsu) next to a bunch of hobgoblins
(hobarc01) or something. They won't see it until it attacks.

"To defeat a Lich"

I tend to mostly just run away from them (they're so slow) when they start
casting (invariably Time Stop, which takes them a while), wait for their
Protection from Magical Weapons to wear off, then rush them and bash them with
the Flail of Ages (which is quite good at disrupting spells). =D
// Alson: I HATE running away from liches. So, in high levels it's Nature's Beauty and/or Power Word: Blind (both ignore spell protecions and renders the Lich helpless - if it can't see ya, it can't blast you with spells. :D ), then blasting with spells. In low levels, It's just a lame "Loot Daystar, Fry the Lich with Sunray" tactic. Havn't fought the Improved Mages (thus Liches) from the Tactical Mod.

"[about RATI] Here are some screenshots of the tactic in action with a Necromancer"

Heh. Impressive!
// Alson: Yes, Dundee's screenshots are lovely. The tactic itself is simple and well know, i think - you don't ought to be a genius to figure out that 1+1=2. ;)

Cheers,
Xyx
[ 11-06-2002, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Dundee Slaytern 11-06-2002 12:52 PM

Nothing to add really, since it has boiled down to matter of taste now. The invisibility for Aerial Servants seems pointless though, if it is true, since the point of having an Aerial Servant is to smash the brains of enemies. Had it been Improved Invisibility, then it might be worth mentioning. Of course, I guess this means that they get first strike.

Cheerio.

Alson 11-06-2002 01:13 PM

With a +4 THAC0/DMG bonus. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Dundee Slaytern 11-06-2002 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alson:
With a +4 THAC0/DMG bonus. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Eh? That is with Improved Invisibility, and it is a +4 THACO bonus, and a +4 to saving throws.

Alson 11-06-2002 02:52 PM

I think that just being Invisible grants you these bonuses - becuase attacking for the shadows grants them, too. It's a mere speculation, though.

You are right about the +4 to Saving Throws, but AFAIK, it also grants "Attack Bonus" - which is a bonus to both THAC0 and damage.

Dundee Slaytern 11-07-2002 04:07 AM

I highly doubt Improved Invisibility grants damage bonuses. It is not an Attack Bonus, but a bonus to Attack Roll( as in THACO). I referred to IWD as well, and there was no mention of damage bonuses either in the character list or spell description.

An easy experiment will be to create a Mage, a Kensai, and a target. Use the Mage to cast II on the Kensai, then using the Kensai, activate Kai and hit the target( who should be armed).

[ 11-07-2002, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

dragon_lord 11-07-2002 05:31 AM

I tested the Improved Invisibility out on my mage carefully writing down his saving throws, THAC0 and bonuses to damage by reading them off character information screen. Casting improved I i noticed the THAC0 went down by 4 but i failed to see any change in saving throws. Unless its a hidden bonus there is no bonus to saving throws that i can see from Improved I, even though its states that it does have it in the description. Bonus to Damage remained the same. Further digging into improved invisibility by looking at the spell with near infinity and infinity engine editor pro failed to turn up anything about bonuses to saving throws.

Dundee Slaytern 11-07-2002 10:00 AM

Bleah. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img] No bonus to saving throws huh? I am a bit muddled by your comments on damage though. Is there, or is there not a bonus to damage?

Alson 11-07-2002 11:07 AM

The Saving Throws bonus IS there.

I'll test about the damage bonus issue.


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