Which is more powerful? And is there a reason to do a specialist mage class?

<font color="lightblue">Sorcerer is potentially more powerful, but only if you choose the right spells for your playing style.
Yes, there`s a reason to be a specialist mage - extra spell slots.
Choose a school of magic that you never use, and be it`s opposition specialist for the best mage you can play. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

I'll take a specialist mage over a sorcerer any day of the week.

While this is all supposition, and would love to test out my level 38 necromancer against a comparable sorcerer on gamespy - the mage's ability to respond to so many different assaults, and to attack in so many different ways will trump the sorcerer's spellcasting abilities.

Once the mage discovers what spells the sorcerer is using, the mage will be able to throw up defenses for those particular spells, and attack in ways that bypass the sorcerer's defenses. The sorcerer is not nearly so flexible.

For facing the scripted enemies in the game, however, the specialist mage's advantage is lessened because the enemies do not adapt like a real person could.

<font color="gold">IMO, the Sorcerer is by far more powerful, because of his spellsystem. Read here to see my more in-debth opinion of them. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

Sorcerer is the undisputed champion .. you can say -no- all you want, but it has been discussed and proven endlessly that the sorcerer is the ultimate powerhouse. A mage means nothing compared to the power a sorcerer can produce.

Specialist mage's gain one xtra spellslot for every lvl, at the cost of not being able to cast any spells from their opposite school.

I would like to see this tested out in practice. Anyone up for a battle on gamespy - mages versus sorcerers?

Ohh, man..only if I didn't uninstall Bg2, I would have fought someone with my sorcerer..well if any of you do, tell us who prevails [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hehehe, if you have TOB installed use the Wild Mage [img]smile.gif[/img]
They are so fun.

<font color="lightblue">Who is more powerful ??
It depends on what you`re trying to do.
In a situation that calls on being able to cast alot of spells, a Sorcerer is by far the best. But if instead you need to be able to adapt, a Mage is potentially better.
A sorcerer can`t use up all their spells, change them round, then Wish -> Rest or Spelltrap to be a completely different opponent. A mage can`t choose on-the-fly which spells to use.

It depends on what you`re doing, it depends on how you play. Just don`t send your Mage or Sorcerer out into melee... </font>

The reason a sorcerer is so incredibly superior to any mage is their versatility ... the ability to cast any spell they know at any time.
This is what gives them the upperhand at higher levels, using the wish-tactic .. as well as Dundee's [PRATI®-tactic]™.

A sorcerer can cast Project Image as much times as he has lvl 7 spells, but the project Image can then cast any other lvl 7 spell he knows too.
A mage doesnt have that little trick, he has to memorize as much PI's as he wants to cast, which means his PI wont be able to cast any other lvl 7 spell than PI.
So a sorcerer can cast more PI's than a mage, and a sorcerer's PI 'll be more effective than the mage's.

Then there's the Wish-rest option. Cast lvl 9 wish, and hope for the rest until healed-option.

Again the sorcerer comes out victorious, since he can potentially cast Wish as often as his slots allow him, to get the rest untill healed-option ... WITHOUT losing the potential of casting other lvl 9 spells.
A sorcerer is therefore a safer bet, and will be much more destructive in the end.
The only way a mage has a reasonable change for the rest until healed-option, is if he spends all his lvl 9 slots on them ---> no more other lvl 9 spells.

And you're just lucky Dundee hasnt said anything yet ... he'd rip you apart with arguments, numbers and vicious looking smilies [img]tongue.gif[/img]

last year I started a topic like this titled SORCERORS VS WIZARDS. I was favoring wizards and daan is right Dundee hasn't came yet and rip you to shreds just as he has to me. But still asn't changed my opinion. Sorcerors can cast a [b]FEW[\B] spells more often than Wizards can [B]BIG WOOP[\B]. Sure sorceros can cast some spells more often. Pretend this a wizard and a sorceror have both been friends for years and they all know their spells. Next week they both know they gotta fight eachother for some strange circumstance. The sorceror has to level up awfully quick to learn more spells. The mage knowing all the sorcerors spells can read scrolls that would counter the Sorcerors spells. I doubt that would happen. Wizards are more flexible. They have more access to a variety of spells and if they know what they are up against well they can easily learn memorize it and did I forget that you receive [B]EXPIERENCE POINTS[\B] for that.Now I heard from a paticular someone that when you create a sorceror and choose the wise spells it can counter about every situtation that comes walking to you. You know what I say? WRONG! yes yes I heard this example before. Lets say you are a dull witted sorceror. A archer is shooting at you and hits you when you were just about to cast magic missile. Well you will do it again and again and again. Well obviously you will eventually succeed. I tell this to all sorceror fans I reconize this advantage. But what if you go up against something lets say a uh uh well a monster right. And say the few spells you chose has now effect on him. Oh no you say I am almost completley useless. I can deal damage to it but hey not enough to kill it. This is a rule for wizards and sorcerors: No spells with no protection= DEATH. A wizard would most likely come with a variety of spells. The wizard might or might not kill it but most likey deal more damage than the sorceror can. But a sorceror against a monster that is vulnerable to most of the sorcerors spells is toast. Wizards can do this too. (But not all the time.) Now I am finished with my statement and am ready to see many many people go against me.

P.S. For the mage supporters out there please help me out cause last time I was alone against Dundee (shrudders) and many other sorceror supporters.

Let's use my level 38 necromancer as an example...

The advantage lies in having a greater repetoire of spells available, and he's got just about every spell in his book.

If both spellcasters were equally skilled, they would be able to neutralize each other for a good period of time. But during that time, the mage would learn what spells the sorcerer has available, and rememorize-wish-rest accordingly. The sorcerer cannot do that.

The necro can summon anything, cast any offensive spell, cast any defensive spell, the sorcerer can't.

Since the sorcerer is limited, the necro will be able to block what needs blocking, and attack where the sorcerer is weakest.

The adaptability of the mage outweighs the brute force of the sorcerer.

The brute force of the sorcerer will take anything else out.

In the end, it would really come dowen to who fails a save first.

well said very well said! Now I wonder what Dundee has to say hmm.

<font color="lightblue">Some people make more powerful mages than sorcerers, some people are better off as a Sorcerer.
If you like knowing *exactly* what you can cast, *exactly* how many you can cast, and prepare for battles in advance with that knowledge, a mage is best for you.
If you`re like me, and often forget to re-organise your memorised spells, you will undoubtedly find a Sorc easier to play, and more powerful in your game than any of your mages. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font color="gold">*Waits for Dundee...*</font>

[ 01-02-2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: LennonCook ]

Crikey, some people seem to think I am an Ogre when it comes to debating. [img]tongue.gif[/img] On with the commenting,

I will use my level 31 Sorcerer as an example, giving you a slight advantage of one additional level nine spell, +7 HP and... that is about it I think.

I love this argument, because it is only truly an advantage, when most of the spells in the game are useful. Unfortunately, this is not so. Why, for some spell levels, I am forced to select mediorce spells simply because there are no other good spells already.

A Sorcerer can select 4-5 spells per spell level, and in a twisty way, this is roughly how many good spells there are per spell level. What a Sorcerer uses, is also what a Mage usually uses, but the Sorcerer has the advantage of immediate versatility and superior firepower to boot.

You would need the following at ALL times, Spell Immunity:Abjuration for Dispel Magic and Imprisonment, Globe of Invulnerability for level 1-4 spells, Spell Immunity:Divination for True Sight, Protection from Magical Weapons for Melf's Minute Meteors and summons, either Protection from Magical Energy or Spell Immunity:Necromancy for Finger of Death and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Spell Immunity:Enchantment for Feeblemind, etc... ...

If you are going to try and counter every single thing a Sorcerer can do, you are eventually going to lose because believe it or not, the spells I described above are endless and infinite until the Sorcerer stops spellcasting. This is because of the Wish spell, which the Sorcerer can use during battle to restore spells effectively.

Unless you lucked out or wasted all your level nine spell slots with the spell Wish, a Mage cannot do the same, and even then, not as effectively. Even with 25 WIS, the chance to get the "Rest & Rememorise" option is roughly 12.5% if I recall correctly.

A tip for Mage users out there, do not use the Wish route( too much of a gamble for Mages). That is for Sorcerers. Use the Spell Trap method that Alson uses. This tactic can be found on this website.

In conclusion, do not think that a Sorcerer is limited in his/her options.

*GASP!* Horrors! I cannot summon a Warg! Oh, oh, oh the humanity! And Grease! I cannot cast Grease! Why oh why did I not pick Grease? *Sniffle*, and no Protection from Normal Missiles, surely I will perish now.

Rightttt... ...

Skeleton Warriors, Mordenkainen's Swords, Sword Spiders and Planetars are all an arcane spellcaster needs. Honestly... will a Sorcerer care if that Mage over there can conjure a Fire Elemental which will succumb to a MSword anyway?

A Sorcerer can kill anything with ease, so long as the battleground is not a Dead-Magic Zone. Ever Weimer, Modder of many of the outrageously difficult Improved Fights, admits that they are a cakewalk for a Sorcerer, because you see... a Sorcerer is the cheesiest arcane spellcaster in the game.

Short of psionics, a Sorcerer can defend him/herself from anything. A few select spells, and the Sorcerer more or less gives him/herself immunity to death. Why... for a lark, a Sorcerer can heal himself while simultaneously killing everybody in the MAP with the same spell. A Mage can try to do the same, but only a Sorcerer can take it to the extreme. Heard of the Ritual Mod? A Sorcerer can clear out the forest in less than a turn.

Strangely enough, it has always been the Sorcerer who has the easier time in the game. Why? Simply because offense IS the best defense. That smouldering pile of ashes cannot hurt you... ...

You speak of adaptability, but a Mage's adaptability is not during a battle. A Sorcerer can easily adapt during the battle, making last-minute decisions when something unexpected happens. A Mage cannot. When something unexpected happens to a Mage, what usually happens is that the next spell casted is called "Reload". [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I understand you have fought Improved Irenicus. I will let it be known that my Sorcerer, with NO prior knowledge of what goes on in that mod, with no clue and with no idea of what to expect, defeated that mod on Insane Difficulty on the very FIRST try with no reloading.

THAT's adaptability for you. A Sorcerer is not just about brute force, a Sorcerer is about brute force mixed with immediate versatility and very handy tactics that really come alive in a Sorcerer's hands, but are mediorce with a Mage.

Why give the opponent a chance, when you can use tactics that do not allow the target to save? :D

Mmmmm... brains... ...

You make a powerful point with the fact that you took down improved Irenicus on the first try on insane with a sorcerer - though I am yet a neophyte at soloing, this does seem to be very strong evidence in favour of the class.

I refuse, however, to capitulate on the sorcerer versus mage debate, until I experience first hand what a sorcerer can do.

Which means another run through the game with a magic user - a sorcerer. I will conceded the debate pending that effort.

Dont worry, if you take a sorcerer through the game, you'll be done in no time ;)

Impressive post, Dundee! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Comments:
Hmmm... Be careful here. I would say that there are 4-5 spells per spell level that i use on regular basis, but most spell levels have about ~6 useful spells (i'm assuming party sorcerer here).

Remove Magic, too.

Now, the defense settings depends on the arena settings. A big arena opens bigger opportunities - cast Mislead and hide the the decoy, run away and cast PI + Farshight, etc...

More like 20%.

Yep - the Spell Trap method is better suited for Mages.

I wholly agree.

Though this will mean you're doing the quest the evil way. ;)

Mwahahaha!
I've got you now, Dundee Slaytern! :D
I'm bookmarking this thread! :D [img]tongue.gif[/img]

consider this: A mage is fighting a sorcerer of an equal level. Both have 4 level 7 spells and 3 level 8 spells and 2 level 9 spells.

Level 9 selections are Spell Strike and Spell Trap (i would use energy drain...but then it would be a contest of fast-casting...kinda cheesy)

Level 8 selections: Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting, Pierce Shield, Incendiary Cloud

Level 7 selections :Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray, Ruby Ray of Reversal, and Spell Turning

probably the best mage vs mage spells out there (excluding the obvious cheese spells)

consider this: the sorcerer has 2 full-dispels, and 2 partial dispells with lower resistance, and 4 partial dispells, while he can cast spell trap twice, and spell turning four times.

the mage on the other hand, would have to fill up his entire vault of available spells to be able to match the abilities of the sorcerer just in dispelling...and not be able to do damage, whereas the sorcerer still retains all of his other spells.

If the mage were to memorize each of the spells once, for the purpose of versatility, the mage would lose, simply because he couldn't dispell all of the sorcerer's shields. The mage would have 1 total dispell, 1 partial dispell with lower resistance, and 1 partial dispell. The sorcerer can cast spell turning 4 times, and spell trap 2 times. And still have all of his level 8 spells to kill with.

This is why the sorcerer is better than the mage.

Yup, as Dundee already said :
-Mages are a little more versatile -not necessarily more effective though- before any fight.
-sorcerers are more versatile during the fight

A plan that cant be changed, 'll probably fail . . .
A mage has more capabilities to come up with a very broad spell-plan .. but the sorcerer can constantly adapt to any situation. A lot more helpfull.

Sorcerer is THE number one spellcaster. At the end of ToB I could cast at least 8 spells for most spell levels and thats a lot. Besides, Sorcerers can use scrolls so carry some of those just in case you see?

All of the spell protections in the world would not protect your sorcerer from

Chain contingency-web-web-web
Incendiary Cloud
Spell Trigger-web-web-web

Not only will the cloud damage you (even with the cloak of cheese on), it will disrupt your spellcasting even if you save.

Of course a lot depends on who gets the drop on who, but if you miss a save on the first set of webs - you're toast.

The mage, with the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power casts incendiary cloud with a casting time of 2.

Then comes a spell trigger loaded full of more webs.

If you get caught in any of them, then...

Here comes another incendiary cloud.

Then another web.

And so on.

I still promise to try out a sorcerer now though, to get a first hand perspective.

Actually, Spell Immunity : Evocation will make the Sorcerer immune to both. ;)

The Sorcerer, with the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power casts Spell Immunity : Evocation with a casting time of 0. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Odin Magnus - Spell Ineffective


Odin Magnus - Spell Ineffective

Odin Magnus - Spell Ineffe...
Well, you get my drift. ;)

In BG2, because of the HUGE focus on combat, the sorcerer rules. He is simply the king, the powerhouse, the class destined to make the game too easy.

If we were discussing PnP, however, it would be alot closer. In the PnP world, lots of varied situations come up, making a wide spell selection vital. Wizards can do a bit of preparation, and be perfectly set to counter *any* situation that they have a bit of time to get ready for. Sorcerers still rule in sudden or prolongued combat, though.

Now, bearing in mind that in BG2, about all there is is prolongued and sudden combat, the sorcerer rules. Maybe once or twice he might wisdh he had protection form acid/poison/whatever, but hey - that's what scrolls are for [img]smile.gif[/img]

In PnP, it very much depends on your playing style and the campaign you're in.

In BG2, the Sorc rules, without a shadow of a doubt.

Alson and Bardan the issue depends on the situation on the comp or PnP. In the situation I described above, if the two spellcasters were to happen upon each other, the mage would have the advantage - at least on the comp.

On the comp - you have no idea what's coming out of my chain contingency - or what I'm casting first - thus Odin would have no idea to cast spell immunity - evocation.

In PnP, however, I believe a succesfull spell knowledge check would allow the sorcerer to get of his spell immunity invocation before the incendiary cloud - but still not before the first set of webs.

(read Dundee's post and lies there twithcing) NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO dang no goody nabbit of a husky on a blow drying ontop of mount corn cob!!! Ripped into shreds once again into a lotta itsy bitsy pieces.........but I will be back tommrow or later today with a argument to counter you dundee MARK MY WORDS!!!!!!!!................(I hope)

Okay Dundee I believe you are right and wrong in some ways. Finnaly I realize that a sorceror is stronger than your everyday mage. I admit it its true sorry for all those (well only 1) that supported me. But I gotta hand it to Dundee you are right in this one. A sorceror is stronger than the mage but.....ONLYat very high levels. Sorceror are the best and the ultimate class when they are at their peak of their true power. Mages on the other hand come close to that but not enough. And sorcerors are stronger than mages at the lowly level one. Now Dundee and all those that follow him don't think I like sorcerors better than sorceros now oooh no. You see mages can attain power much quicker than mages imagine this. You a solo mage one day you found a chest full of scrolss read em get a whole jumble of expierence points get super strong and can wipe out any low level sorceror with ease. Mages can level up get more powerful faster than sorcerors can. This is one major disadvantage to the sorcerors. While the sorceros are stuck going though the sloow and steady way. Now I read in a few places that some mages have a grudge against sorcerors and don't like em and kill em. Must be why sorcerors are not at all so common huh. Few sorcerors get very powerful. If a 40th level Sorceror against a 40th level mage. The battle would be sweet a titanic battle. The mage would memorize spell trigger and so would the sorceror. The mage having a huge advantage of knowing more spells and more tequniques than a sorceror chooses a wider variety of spells than your everyday sorceror has. The sorceror would like the mage would choose the best spells, defensive and offensive. But a sorceror would be able to like put in the spell trigger 2 fireballs but hopefully the mage has the globe of invulnberilaaaaaaatay. Well in both sides its a hard to see who would when. I just don't know hey Dundee if you have multiplayer play against someone who has the same level as your sorceror. Play against a mage and tell me how it turns out eh.But I think the sorceror has a very little higher of a chance of winning than the mage. Like 50.01 perecent chance.

So all I am saying is neither the sorceror or the mage is better than one another. I might have more to say stayyyy tuned 4 more

Just something to think about... my Sorcerer can cast Time Stop in Chapter 3... can your Mage do so? Think carefully... ... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

If you want to talk about low-level... at level one, a Sorcerer can blasts a level one spell 3 times a day... a Mage can only cast once... or twice if he is a Specialist.

While the Mage has to scurry all over Amn to get the best scrolls, a Sorcerer merely has to clap his hands when he/she levels up and say, "Hey! I think I want Mordenkainen's Sword now."

In BG2, a Sorcerer attains power at the following levels,

8: Stoneskin
11: Web + Spawn Spider
12: Death Spell
14: Project Image
15: Skeleton Warrior
18: Time Stop + Improved Alacrity

A Mage depends on his/her scrolls, a Sorcerer merely has to level up.

[ 01-04-2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

Ok, been reading, think I will finally toss in my two cents.

In a CRPG, yes, the sorcerer is king. No real consequences for his or her own power.

In PnP on the other hand, mages have the upper hand.

Sorcerers tend to have things trying to hunt them down when they become powerful enough to notice, much like the Bhaalspawns in BG, and Jon wanting to steal your soul. Sorcerers tend to become targets of powerful entities, agencies, and some times even Gods who feel their power might become threatened. Of course, Mages get this too, but, not to the degree that a Sorcerer would. Sorcerers tend to become to powerful for their own good, usually end up hunted and chased, seldom getting a moments rest.

Also, in some campaigns, Sorcerers do not get to pick their spells. The DM does, spell influence comes from the bloodline of the Sorcerer. If say, the Sorcerer was the by product of a succubus and a human, a willing pairing, said Sorcerer would most likely get a vast majority of his spells from the Enchantment school. Of course, this can have advantages as well as drawbacks, as say, a Sorcerer was the offspring of a powerful planar being of some sort, lets say, a lightning based being, then said Sorcerer could end up getting spells from the lightning sphere of influence, spells that nobody else could cast. Special spells of course, created by a wise DM. If by odd chance, say, Sorcerer was a child of somebody like Talos, then, his or her spell picks would be storm based, like Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Lightning Bolt, and possibly even clerical spells like Firestorm or Call Lightning.

Now if only they could apply something to this effect in a CRPG, we could see the REAL power of a Sorcerer. We could also see his or her weakness.

I realize that this discussion is focused primarily on soloing & on head-to-head fights, but I have to point out that, if you're using a party, each Mage can get your party (or himself for that matter, if soloing) around +750,000 XP by scribing every scroll found in the game. I'll admit to returning to cast off Mages with a full Scroll Case ("hey, Nalia, feel like scribing some scrolls?") just to re-enlist them, have them write some magic, then dump them again. So, factor in the increased XP for the Mage at the same point in the game... [img]smile.gif[/img]

- Imrahil

Note that the Sorcerer/Mage Debate is only in effect here @ BGII. When discussing their superiority in, lets say (dont wanna sound prejudice here), ICEWIND DALE II, the spellcasters completely fall back to the last lines (and even there they are not save since those monsters attack from behind). And what happened? One small step ahead in D&D Rules, one giant setback for the spellcasters.

So unless you're a sorcerer along the SwordCoast, you have SQUAT to say about anything.

And the Liches in Warcraft 3 are cool as well. People should try that game, it is very RPG oriented. You have heros who level up, spellcasters that learn spells, potions to be drinked in battle. Ogres, berserker Trolls etc. COol GamE!