... and I just have to stick my nose in... ;)
I'm talking about the Miss Universe thread for those of us who hadn't notcied yet. ;)
Sorry to open a new thread but I thought it'd be only fair if I could have a word in it myself, seeing how I am the addressee of the post that led to a ban.
Look, I know I am in no position to question the moderators' and Ziroc's decision, so I'm not going to. But for what it's worth, I just wanted to say that I was in no way offended by what Aaron/The Hierophant posted. I know him well enough to figure that he had just been drinking too much. And of course this was the case. ;) He doesn't remember anything about posting the message in question and he's a good friend so whatever he said to me was never meant to be taken seriously. Now I realise that this doesn't change one bit about the fact that he used a swear word that is expressly forbidden according to the terms of service, and therefore as I said I cannot and would not challenge Ziroc's decision in this matter. However, from the precise words you used, Dan, I seem to infer that the fact that Hierophant's post was an attack made the offense much worse in your eyes than if he had just cursed towards nothing in particular. And if that is true, than I hasten to stress again that he's a friend of mine and I took the post in no way seriously, and was not offended by it. I'm just mentioning this because - and I don't want to come across as a smart-ass, I swear! - I have seen you yourself and many other members use the word "damn" in the past few days, even though that was one of the "forbidden" words. And how often has someone like Lord of Alcohol (God bless him [img]smile.gif[/img] ) posted incredibly offensive things while roaring drunk only to regret it the next day and edit his messages? The Hierophant did the exact same thing only he swore at a member of your board and I can imagine you'd ban him for that. But what if the member herself said it's all good? Would you maybe want to reconsider the indefinite character of the ban and change it into a month-long suspension as Larry thought would be the punishment? I really hope so! [img]smile.gif[/img]
I havent spoken to Aaron yet so I have no idea whether he'll appreciate my whiny post about this ;) but I did receive an email with an apology and an explanation. He seems to accept the ban as punishment for his post but I for one hope the above will change your mind Dan. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Thanks for reading!

I was expecting something like this from Sarah. I know that she and Aaron have contact outside IW and that while the words of what was said were outside the boundaries of IW, the intent was not poisonous like it may have seemed. If you are not swayed by Sarah's appeal then I urge you Dan to cut the sentence back to a time frame rather than indefinite like you posted.

Cheers Sarah, Aaron, and Dan - I am hoping for a better outcome.

Yeah I was a bit surprised myself - alcohol would explain it :D and I know Hiero didn't have any hate in his heart

I've also sent a PM to Dan about this, but I'll just echo the things Davros and Melusine have already said in this topic <font size=0>topic</size>. ;)

Unfortunately I missed this incident, but as a moderator it's clear to see why Ziroc and Larry took the action they did, because on the surface Hiero violated a rule we hold sacrosanct, regarding personal abuse of a fellow forum member, which is something we take very seriously. We do not tell people to "eff off, seriously", on this board.

Having said that, I've always thought that Aaron was a good bloke and felt that the outburst was out of character for him.

At the end of the day, whether or not he was drunk, whether or not Mel was offended, he broke an Ironworks rule and there is a penalty associated with that, which we will decide. Aaron will need to accept that penalty - we need to be responsible and accountable for what we post here. But if he's showing remorse for what he did and if it's obvious that he didn't mean it, then an indefinite ban would appear to be too harsh, wouldn't it.

It's Z's call in the end, but if Aaron was to write an email to Z explaining why this happened, an apology for provoking a degree of discord to our forum, and a promise to not do it again, it can only help his cause. ;)

[ 06-04-2004, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

It's only personal abuse if I took it that way. ;)
Don't get me wrong, I think it's one of the best rules we have (that you cannot abuse another member) and I know it can't be denied that what he did *was* curse at me, but like I said, I never took it seriously. Heck, I've said worse things to him in private ;) - which may be why he forgot where he was and responded in the sort of way we usually talk to each other. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Anyway, like I said he said he could see why Dan took this action and agrees with it, sort of. So I don't know if Aaron himself wants to beg to be let back in after a temporary ban. But ah well. Just thought I'd let you know how I took his comment. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color=skyblue>PWI, Posting while Intoxicated.

We should incorporate that into the forum rules.
Obviously, the guy is going to have to pay a price for his infraction against the law, intended or not. Drunk drivers do not intend to injure/kill innocent people, but they still get a penalty.

The time of suspension/ban is always up to Ziroc, so appealing directly to him is the only way to get the matter resolved...and he needs to do it personally. Others have been banned and come back to us when I thought that they'd never be seen again. Ziroc is a very forgiving soul. </font>

<font color=skyblue>Melusine, you did not take it seriously, but how many IW members did?

Wanna know how I found out about it? A Report Post. Somebody else was offended and thought he was doing you a favor by calling help to your side.

Anyway, it sounds to me that he needs to simply speak to Ziroc about it. </font>

This is a good point. Abuse does not need to offend just the person being abused. This is an online community and what people post affect all of us. And Mel, we're not asking Aaron to beg his way back - it's really more us wanting an explanation of why this happened and wanting to have some confidence that it wouldn't happen again, before we make any decisions. I would hardly call that begging. But as you said, it's his call, and ultimately Dan's. ;)

[ 06-04-2004, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Gosh, what a bunch of tender little souls people have, to be offended every time someone else is insulted. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I think people reported the post because they thought *I* was insulted, or because they were insulted by the f-word, but not because they were offended by the insult to me.

Anyway.

Like I said I'm not discussing or challenging the rules that lead to a banning here, I'm just asking whether it would not be a mitigating circumstance if the insult was not taken as one.
And AFAIK, Aaron's already emailed Dan. I just don't know whether such a big fuss should be made over this when as I said, several members have used curse words in the last few days and several people have used the f-word here when drunk in the past. Oops, now I *am* challenging the rules, sorry. Hmm, no, scratch that - not challenging them, just their application. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Geez, go easy on the sarcasm, why dontcha mate!! :D I understand your position on this, Sarah, you weren't offended, for which I am glad. I hope you understand where we're coming from as well.

Also, something you may not have been aware of is that a few days ago Dan commented on the fact that curse words have been increasingly used on this forum and he wanted this stopped. Cue Aaron. His timing was not the greatest, unfortunately. [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img]

Anyway, since Dan made the initial decision, he will doubtless make the final decision. The mitigating circumstances you mention won't change the fact that a penalty will likely be applied - but they will likely influence the severity of that penalty. Bit like a speeding ticket - if you've never sped before the cop is more likely to warn you than book you. I have my own opinion and will make that known to Dan, as will the rest of us. Let's leave it at that, eh? We've all made our positions clear. After all, we're breaking yet another rule - discussing moderator decisions on the forum. :D

Let's leave it for now. Fair enough? ;)

[ 06-04-2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Dude. I am all for a ban, I understand the rules and I understand that Aaron broke them. All I'm saying is that an indefinite ban might be slightly exaggerated given that "no one was hurt".

And I *know* Dan cracked down on curse words recently, that was the point I was making in fact. Like I said in my initial post I don't want to be a smart ass so I won't repeat my complaint, but read between the lines. My point is that even with the reinforcement of the rule, some people cursed. *cough*

And yeah, I know not to discuss a moderator's decision on the forum, so I hesitated when I started the thread. However, the point of it was not to challenge the decision, I just thought I should be allowed my say since I was the person concerned after all. Now that I've had it, consider the case closed AFAIAC, until Dan has a chance to look at it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

*subtle hint for Madchen*

<font color="green">
in·def·i·nite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-df-nt)
adj.
1. Not definite, especially:
a. Unclear; vague.
b. Lacking precise limits: an indefinite leave of absence.
c. Uncertain; undecided: indefinite about their plans.
</font>

All should be cool. :D ;)

[ 06-04-2004, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Throwing my 2 cents in here. I thought two things when the post was reported : 1) That's not like the Hierophant to curse someone directly in the forum! 2) Geez he's snapped if he posted an 'f' you to Sarah! That's gonna cost him!

My point is that I couldn't believe he would mean it and at the same time, from the post itself, couldn't tell that he didn't. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that others thought it was a serious personal attack on another member. I'm relieved to see it wasn't and that you're not offended, Sarah.

Looks like it was bad timing and a little alcohol... and Hiero is going to have time to think about it, but as Mems said, it may not be long. In view of the circumstances, I'd advocate a shorter amount of time, myself. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-04-2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

Guilty as charged. :D

Subtle hint to Genieboy: My English is not *that* bad is it? :(
I know what indefinite means. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I also know that on IWs it's usually longer than a month or Dan would have phrased it differently. I also thought we were both going to drop it. ;) I'm also thinking Genieboy is getting a teensy bit exasperated with me now. I suddenly remembered Genieboy is the epitome of laid-back cool so I'm probably safe. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I'm also gonna stop talking in this annoying manner NOW.

Amber, thanks for the input - well said! [img]smile.gif[/img]

You've been doing quite well this far, johnny. :D

Edit: Sorry if I derailed this serious thread... [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[ 06-04-2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

My opinion is as follows:</font>

• You get punsihed if you drive and injured somebody under the influnece of alchocol even if you didn` mean it. So don` drnk and drive next time O.K?</font>
• Since he was under the influnce of alco. he wasn`t aware of his actions. He might get only suspended for two weeks for example.</font>
• It`s Z`s choice in the end, so let him decide what to do or not do.</font>

Well, we could off topic your thread, Sarah, and start discussing Johnny's serious PWI record. ;) :D

[ 06-04-2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

Damn straight I'm the epitome of laid-back [img]graemlins/cool.gif[/img] so you're safe. Lucky... :D :D :D :D

[ 06-04-2004, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

My opinion is as follows:

Since the mods are all capable of making these decisions (which is why they are mods in the first place) and since they didn't need my opinion, they certainly don't need yours. ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Also, we all agreed to drop it. I'm doing my best shutting up here, please stop making replies!! Argh! :D

Amber - we could broaden that a bit, don't you think? Why not start a thread comparing the delicate intricacies of all our members PUI (posts under influence)? There's LoA's blunt charm, Epona's rambly ravings, Wendy's out-of-hand monstrosities. Even I have a few embarrassing PUIs on my track record. ;) [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

ROTFL! PUI's and PWI's....well, I do recall posting some purrrrty personal stuff back in the days of Armisael and the old blue board.... and it was only a wee drop o'brandy that brought it all on... [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

Bah, y'all can't hold your liqor. Buncha sissies. :D

Hmmm, posting under the influence - done that a few times, but y'all can't tell as I handle my drink so well..or something [img]tongue.gif[/img]

*wonders how long before this thread gets locked too* :D

I thought it was a joke just because of the previous posts. Still language is a problem although I remember you guys being fine with a guy using the C word here.

off-topic:

what is the difference between pwi and pui?

on-topic:

i am offended but strong language (here or anywhere else) since my baptism in october. and would have reported it myself because this is a family friendly board and just because most young (11-13) teens cuss doesn't mean i support them reading it in a fully accessable forum.

back off-topic:

i never understood the difference with dui's and dwi's either.

the difference is simple, dwi=you are drunk
dui means you are on your way to being drunk but not there yet ;)

ok...see i've only been caught drunk in public, not drunk driving so i never knew.

hey Smoothie, where've you been and how come you've registered a new account?

I think I'll throw my two cents in here.

Ok, for one, I was suprised myself when Hiero actually posted that, it was out of the blue to me. But here is what I can't understand, and that is how other people are offended when the post wasn't directed at them. Don't get me wrong, I know he broke one of the forum rules, but I'm not saying being drunk is a reason for him to do it all the time. I say just let him off with a warning so he doesn't do it again, or he'll know what'll happen. Besides, I know there are a few people with a beer beside their computers, don't lie [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Oh, and one other thing, to whoever used this, never debate against PWI with DWI in an arguement, ever. They are so insanely different, it's unreal [img]tongue.gif[/img]

hey Smoothie, where've you been and how come you've registered a new account? </font>[/QUOTE]oh I've been fighting with people at my own board for once. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I registered with a new name just at work because I don't know my pass and can't get my email at work either.

Gangrell it is the cursing itself that might be found offensive by others although it didn't bother me in the least, me being the potty mouth that I am. It is a pg-13 board but I do think he should have gotten warning and not just banned outright, but again just my opinion.

For the love of... Okay, fine. Still funny to see how sensitive some people can get over something as irrelevant as a curse-word that's pretty much accepted in informal speech about anywhere else in the world anyway. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...ons/icon37.gif I can see how some people consider it to be offensive, however; and besides, it's Ziroc's forum, Ziroc's rules. That much is clear, and I have no problems with abiding by it. But to ban someone for it? I personally think it's a bit too harsh. And I mean no disrespect to the moderators here (never did, never will), but what's wrong with a simple mod overrule edit and an official warning, especially regarding the context in which the "insult" was made?

And anyways, if the f-word is really that big a deal, just install a curseword-filter or something of the kind - replacing it by something silly, like "skippy ball" or "pineapple". Then all those tender, fragile 11-13 year old souls can at least enjoy IW without being surrounded by hypocrite expressions of shock whenever someone relapses into using one of the Forbidden Words.

[ 06-04-2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Haha. That's what, like your third account here on Ironworks?

[ 06-04-2004, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Really? I must have missed that, then. ;)

just going to throw my 2 cents worth in on this topic...
for some people, cursing is not only morally wrong, but it is against their belife system, that is why some find it offensive, plus, when said in certain ways, it is degrading, and insulting to people, so although I am not saying he should be banned for it, I agree it was wrong to say it, and there is a topic along the same lines in the current events where Dan said if it was said again, it would be cause for a ban

so why allow the C word but not the F word? and it was blatantly brushed off when I complained about it. To me the C word is offensive the F word is like an adjective.

Haha. That's what, like your third account here on Ironworks? </font>[/QUOTE]yeah i always forget to change the default pass and then when i need to remember it i can't.

For the love of... Okay, fine. Still funny to see how sensitive some people can get over something as irrelevant as a curse-word that's pretty much accepted in informal speech about anywhere else in the world anyway. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...ons/icon37.gif I can see how some people consider it to be offensive, however; and besides, it's Ziroc's forum, Ziroc's rules. That much is clear, and I have no problems with abiding by it. But to ban someone for it? I personally think it's a bit too harsh. And I mean no disrespect to the moderators here (never did, never will), but what's wrong with a simple mod overrule edit and an official warning, especially regarding the context in which the "insult" was made?

And anyways, if the f-word is really that big a deal, just install a curseword-filter or something of the kind - replacing it by something silly, like "skippy ball" or "pineapple". Then all those tender, fragile 11-13 year old souls can at least enjoy IW without being surrounded by hypocrite expressions of shock whenever someone relapses into using one of the Forbidden Words. </font>[/QUOTE]I hear you, Grolj, but with respect when someone tells someone else to eff off, we take notice, friendship or no friendship, and I've got a damn good feeling that Z didn't know of Mel's friendship with Hiero. I'm not at all surprised he reacted the way he did, not knowing the context of which you speak. When I myself saw Aaron's post I didn't know what to think, and I knew of his friendship with Mel. As soon as Z reads this thread he'll have a better picture of the situation which will assist his decision making process with respect to the severity of the penalty.

Till then let's call this specific topic quits, eh? We're starting to recycle opinions and I can see this possibly heading into a cussers v anti-cussers debate, which I don't want to happen as it will detract from the reason Mel posted the thread in the first place - to clear Aaron's name and provide Z with the context in which the comment was made. I don't want that jeopardised by a debate I see developing on forum cussing policy as it's important that the integrity of this thread be maintained. This particular thread is NOT the place to debate forum policy - we all know there are mechanisms in place for people to use if they want to make suggestions on forum policy.

So on that note I'll close this, in everyone's best interests. I didn't want to, I hate proving Vask right :D but I'm guessing that if I leave it open it may do more harm than good if you know what I mean. You guys have a habit of getting carried away, you can't resist yourselves at times! Cheers. ;)

[ 06-05-2004, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]