<font color = mediumspringgreen>Well, I knew that waiting until F(13) to DC to Thief would have its draw backs...

Got diseased in DE3, TWICE.

I didn't want to leave the traps at the end of DE3 to ambush my bleeding party on the way back from an encounter on DE4, so I had the whole team walk in a staggered line as a living minesweeper. Took very heavy damage and then went to DE2 to heal. Thought I had got them all, but got nailed by a trap going through the door into DE4. Took 4 heals to repair that.

So, I forget: Where do I start missing out on treasure/opportunities because I have no Thief to find doors to hidden rooms, etc?

I remember that you guys told me about a +2 Returning Axe, and (unbelievably) I remember where. Do I need a "Find Traps" type skill or spell to get to it?

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

I don't think you need a thief to get into the room - I seem to recall getting into it without a thief.

You can play without a thief and not miss any treasure or rooms, but it's a major pain - beyond inconvenience.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Thank you, Aerich!

Do you remember where the hidden rooms start appearing? It has been so long, that I forget. If you remember, please "spoil" me.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

Yes, you can get into the hidden room without a thief. You press a hidden button (not so hidden, with the Alt key) to get into it. As for hidden rooms, there aren't really any that I remember that I would call "hidden" (besides the one with the axe.)

I think BSG has it right. The only really "hidden" room is in the southeast corner of DE lvl 5. There aren't any to speak of in the SH. DD has the door to Krilag's caves, but I can't remember if that's a secret door or not.

Anyway, the Alt key should see you through.

I wouldn't call a thief "necessary" in this game in the sense that you couldn't get through without one. It's just such a terrible pain to do without - kind of like going through the game without warriors. Doable but frustrating and sometimes difficult.

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Agreed. I have for years maintained that enjoying IWD without a Thief was so close to impossible that the difference didn't matter. Now that I am trying to build the perfect F/T, I am realizing how true this is.

I am crutching the party along with a 7th character (the temporary Thief) that I "hire" in. Although I expect to have an awesome product for the mid to late game; I have to admit that an MC F/T would be a better choice for overall game enjoyment (instead of the DC F(13)/T I am building) if the use of a 7th character was ruled out for whatever reasons.

I've got the +2 returning Axe... and ain't it a beauty? I know I've been here before; but obviously did not appreciate the power of the artifact I found; since I do not even remember getting nor selling it. Range appears to be the same as for Bow; but this is *BETTER* than a Bow loaded with an endless supply of +2 arrows, because the wielder can (and mine most certainly will) go to 5 PP in it.

3.5 ApR possible in a +2 magically enchanted RANGED weapon? And while carrying a shield! How did I miss this the first time around? I must have been blind...

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

[ 10-11-2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

<font color = shadowed cyan> The thing i find most annoying is when i have no way at all to open a lock so i just have to deal with the fact that im missing out on all that awsome loot because im waiting for my fighters to dual. oh and disease traps *shudders*</font>

<font color = mediumspringgreen>~ Slight DE spoilers buried in the below ~

Your Bard should have the Knock spell available, which will get you into all those locked chests (and you *DO* want to get into them: there are lots of excellent items to be had in DE). As far as disease (and don't forget poison) traps... well, seeing as how you have no Cleric... you're screwed.

Seriously, if I were in your particular case, I would "hire" a multiclass Cleric/Thief (I'm pretty sure this is a legal combo) and spend some time camping in that first large open area near the entrance to DE3, to level her up to Cleric(6)/Thief(6). This takes 27.5K for the Cleric side, which is 55K XP for the character, which is 330K for a party of 6, which is 235 Cold Wights (on normal difficulty), which (since you average about 4.5 Wights per encounter) is almost exactly 50 encounters, which should take you about 70 minutes. This is not lost time, since over 83% of the gained XP is going into your DC characters. (Although it makes the party less efficient, I'd bring all 5 DC characters for the camping and leave the Bard home, since she doesn't need the extra XP.)

I just did a less ambitious leveling like this on DE3, 2 nights ago with a straight Thief, and it worked very well. With 5 Fighters armed with enchanted weapons (in which they've been stacking PP), you should be able to give 6 Wights a dirt nap in about 4 rounds, while only taking an average of 10 points total damage to the party per encounter. Mother Eugenia is just seconds away, at the end of DE2, if you need a break; but you should get in a full DE3 rest often enough to keep health up to a very comfortable level (well above 70%). Don't forget to save game every 7 fights or so.

Pump "Find Traps" and "Disarm/Unlock" (forgot that last skill name), exclusively, on the Thief side; and load up on cure disease and Slow/Cure Poison on the Cleric side. Your hireling will make DE5 much more bearable; and can be called in for future tough spots.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

[ 10-11-2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

C/T is only available to Gnomes.

Since Gnomes rock, this shouldn't be a problem. [img]smile.gif[/img]