Ok, i think ill probably play one of these in my evil party... so i created one of each in a MP game (both half orc and same stats), and gave 3 million xp, a celestial fury and a blackrazor to each... this is what i got:

Swashbuckler up, f/t down:
THAC0: swash -1/1, f/t 0/2
AC: swash 1, f/t 6 (i didnt give them armor or any items except for weapons)
Thieving abilities: swash has 690, f/t has 515

F/T up, swashbuckler down:
Can backstab
Attacks: f/t has 7/3, while swash only 2
HLA: f/t already got one, swash none
HP: f/t has 117, swash 93
F/t has 1 more proficiency point than swash

About saving throws: F/t has slighty better saves.
What amazes me is that swash base THAC0 is 10 and f/ts one is 7... do they get any bonus each X levels ? description doesnt say so, but then again spanish description about swashbuckler says "They get a 2 ac bonus" instead of "They get 1 AC bonus every 5 levels" or whatever, so i dont trust it a lot [img]smile.gif[/img]

I guess this has been discussed many times, but which one do you like better ?

I like Swashbucklers more. However, I can't tell if they're better or not, Swashies and F/T's are on the whole as equal as two different classes can be IMHO. Swashies start out with +1 AC and every 5 levels they get a +1 THACO, Dmg and AC bonus, they can also specialize in any Thief weapon and get *** in Two Weapon Style.

Comparing at 8 000 000 XP

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• F/T is lvl 24/28 and has 141 HP (for 19 CON)</font>
• Swashie is lvl 40 and has 140 HP (for 16+ CON)</font>

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• F/T has 700 Thief Points</font>
• Swashie has 1000 Thief Points</font>

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• F/T has base THAC0 0</font>
• Swashie has base THAC0 3 (7 when using Whirlwind)</font>

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• F/T has no extra damage bonuses</font>
• Swashie gets a +8 Dmg bonus (+4 when using Whirlwind)</font>

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• F/T has 5/2 base APR (10 when using GWW)</font>
• Swashie has 1 base APR (10 when using Whirlwind)</font>

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• F/T has no bonus to AC</font>
• Swashie has a +9 AC bonus</font>

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• F/T gets all Fighter and Thief HLA's</font>
• Swashie misses out on Assassination, but gets Whirlwind instead</font>

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• F/T levels up pretty slowly</font>
• Swashie levels up very quickly</font>

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• F/T can use any weapon and any armour early on</font>
• Swashie is initially limited to only thief weapons and armours, and they can never be proficient in non-thief weapons, they also cannot backstab.</font>

There are probably more comparisons that can be made, but these are the most significant differences between Swashies and F/T's. My own personal preference is with Swashies, though F/T's most likely are a bit better.

[ 03-26-2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Yes i also like swashies more... that AC boost is really big, and when i get the UAI ill probably use heavy armor (i plan on using Valen for traps), which should make my ac something nice. Also I dont care missing the fighter HLAS as greater ww is the only one thats worth it imho.
Only thing i *really* dislike is the APR, but well, nothings perfect [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well like I wrote in the list, APR isn't really a problem for Swashies since they can get Whirlwind and hit 10 APR just as easily as F/T's. Your THAC0 and damage will take a hit, but your fighting capabilities will still be on par with the F/T's. Get 10-12 Whirlwinds and you'll be able to use it as your primary attack. If that isn't enough for you, you can always equip him with Belm, Kundane and the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, which should give him a grand total of 9/2 APR when unhasted [img]smile.gif[/img]

True, but anyway if im going for one extra attack, id rather equip the Scarlet Ninja-to +3... i never hear anybody mention it, but with UAI i will be able to use it, and it also requires scimitar proficiency, its +3 instead of +2, and can deal an additional 12 poison damage... way better than belm imho.

btw whats kundane ? i cant remember right now

thanks [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'd go with the fighter thief, man; backstab all the way. It's my single favorite ability in the game. The APR advantage of the fighter/thief is pretty large. Also, if you have TOB you get both classes' HLAs.

[ 03-26-2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Arathor ]

If you are going to play on insane then Hardiness is vital for your survival or you will be "pushing up daisies" [img]smile.gif[/img] when hit a couple of times by a big nasty boss. That's F/T's advantage.

I think Swashie will get hit anyway despite AC advantage.

Or you can of course use UAI and scrolls. :D

F/Ts get painful backstabbing abilities, Swashies level quickly. Something to think about. In a party situation, a Swashie could gain a slight upperhand on the fact that he or she would level quickly and cleanly, gaining much needed skills and abilities quickly.

I rather like a Swashie, but, the lack of backstabbing turns me off. I would rather have lethal backstabbing abilities at my disposal should I need them. Flashy fighting is all fine and dandy, dual wielding is good, but, nothing, and I mean nothing, beats a well placed dagger in a pesky mage's back.

Yeah.BUT TACTICS MOD NERFS THAT.ALL MAGE IMMEDIATLEY CAST STONESKIN WHEN YOU ENETER IN SOME PLACE.

Yep, the Scarlet Ninja-to is great. I didn't mention it because it takes quite some time before you can use it [img]smile.gif[/img] Kundane is the Short sword you find in the Astral Prison. It's description says it has Speed Factor 0, but it does in fact give you an APR bonus just like Belm and the Ninja-to.

Don't dismiss using both The Ninja-to and Belm though. Their APR bonuses stack, and as a fighter-orientated thief, you can never have enough APR bonuses ;)