Firstly I would like to say how my heart goes out to all those who lost loved ones due to the evil work of the minority of this world and hope justice will be done. and hope the twin towers will be re-built not only as a symbol of defiance in the face of tyranny. but as a memorial to all those who lost their lives.

I am from the UK and have been reading about acts of terrorism for over 30 years not just around the world but here in the UK so many innocent live have been lost and for what, how does anyone gain anything by taking an innocent child’s life, what cause can possibly think to promote itself with such Terrible acts of violence, the moment a terrorist takes one life in the name of his or Her cause then That cause is a lost one.
For all they do is strengthen the resolve against them and eventually bring retribution upon themself's and their cause. THEY HAVE TO JOIN THE HUMAN RACE NOT SET THEMSELF'S ADRIFT FROM IT. they should look at THEIR children they too are inocent.

If a man were to atempt to attack my family in the street of course I would try to reason with him but should he not listen I would defend them as vigorously as needed to protect them from harm. I call it suffering the consequences of his own actions, but I am not a violent person quite the opposite.
Terrorist are no different they kill without mercy and by doing so they have to suffer the consequences of their actions And all free nations should work together to stop such cowardly acts none should sit on the fence lest they become target's themselves.

I wrote this post in responce to Ryanamur's thread (U.S.A my friend Listen...)
only to find it had been closed.It may have turned a little sour but lets face it if you find a sour grape on a bunch you do not throw the bunch away.
Its a shame the thread was closed.
So I have started a new tread because all things can only really change through
discussion,negotiation and compromise, even though it gets heated sometimes.

I myself am patriotic I British and proud of it I go to my shops and spend a
pound I do not want to spend a euro Dollar the pound it part of my heritage
and culture, But Being patriotic does not mean you have to be proud of all
of your country's history. In July 1976 I bought a silver ingot with a first
day cover posted in Philadelphia Commemorating the 200th anniversary of the
declaration of American independence, it does not make me un-patriotic it
means I recognise the right of the American people to govern themselves and
grow to be a proud and just nation. as with all Nations and people's the word over.

And yes we have had the roman empire the Spanish empire the British empire
the French under Napoleon tried to build one Hitler tried to, does that
mean the Germans cant ever be proud of there country no of course not, but I
doubt the majority are proud of that part of there history, They all have
one thing in common THEY EITHER FAILED OR FELL because no Empire has ever Been
fair and just to all.

It is the right of all people of all nations to be proud, but the free the
rich and the powerful must help those who envy freedom who are poor and
weaker than us, to build something Permanent to be proud of. to be part of a
world where no-mater what race creed or colour or religion, we live together
as one race. the human race, Pride and patriotism and the difference in our
cultures should be embraced not fought over. man has been killing each other
since he first learned to throw a rock, now the rocks are so big and
powerful they can kill 100s of thousands, and it is inevitable that someday
someone will throw a rock so big that it will be over for all of us, unless
we ALL agree that the time for change has arrived, history tells us that much.

And weather we be Church of England, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Islam or
any other religion we all have one thing in common... We believe in a
supreme power not made of flesh and blood, this Supreme being is loving and
forgiving, this should be the one thing to bring us together not drive us
apart. Unfortunately we will not see this in our time, for the children of
our children's children are the answer we all must start teaching them to
accept all that is different about us and create, not a world led by one
central government telling everyone what to do making us all the same, but a world of independent and proud nations big and small alike working together for the benefit of all mankind. Then Indeed we will have achieved something to be really proud of.
We know not what we are going to find as we explore distant galaxies, new
friends or Just another enemy to fight, I personally doubt we will find
friendship when the differences between us will be even greater than any we
face here on earth.

I mean no offence to any nation or its patriots only the minority who would drag their country and its people down, to the point of destruction if nessessary just to further their cause, need be offended.

Thanks to Ironworks for the opportunity to express what is only my opinion.

THANK YOU! This is a great post.

I wonder how responses will go to this thread?

It's just a roll of the

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[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-24-2001).]

Fantastic post, Black Widow. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ons/icon14.gif

If you don't mind two small comments ... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Please don't forget about us atheists - what holds us together may not be called God by all people. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

And, about Euro - well, my thinking is that one current political imbalance in the world is that the US are so much bigger than the other countries, thus we must do anything to build Europe, so as all of us European countries can speak as one voice, make a step towards the understanding that we all are above all citizens of our common world - and, to me, the Euro is a major step towards this goal. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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The world is my oyster !

I wasn't going to risk a post in here again, but...

That was absolutely moving. I hope all who read it will see it in a positive light and not view it as inflammatory as it isn't.

The ultimate goal is to have a world where future generations can grow up and raise their own children. This horrible time is not new nor will it be permanent. Time truly goes in a big circle. Cycles of war, cycles of peace. Arguing about our beliefs serves no purpose. Being able to state those beliefs without prejudice from others and respecting others belief without prejudice is the only way we will ever be able to end the perpetuation of violence, hatred and bloodshed. We will probably NEVER be without violence of one sort or another, but my dream is for a future where it is an abberation, not an everyday occurrence.

*end of rambling*

Black Widow, your name should be Beacon of Hope as far as I'm concerned! Thank you for your post. It was a welcome sight on this forum. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Cloudy

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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/cloudy.gif
Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

There are a couple of things in that post that I don't agree with, but for the most of it - WELL SAID, Black Widow. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Edited for spelling, duh!
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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 10-24-2001).]

Hi Everyone
Thanks for not only taking the time to read my thread but for replying.

Hi Ronn_Bman
I must admit I deliberated for hours over weather or not to post this topic as I myself have been guilty of sitting on the fence for years not daring to voice my opinion but felt it was time to do so, But I have no desire to offend anyone.
Thanks again

Hi Moriraine
I am pleased to hear from one of my French Cousins if I may call you that and No I do not mind Small or large comments after all that’s what discussion is all about.I did not intend to exclude you from my comments about us being one race but had I said all that I was thinking I would have written a short story not a post.
Your reply is one I am pleased to get for two reasons 1) What about atheists you are one of countless millions who do not believe in a god just as I am one of the same number who do, but there is still common ground to be found between us firstly all atheists share the fact that they do not believe in a god what you see is all there is perhaps this is not to say you are wrong and I am right, Neither should we try to force our beliefs on each other, but accept the
difference between us, secondly to find the common ground between those who do believe and those who dont is simple. I would think most atheists still believe in the all that is good and just over all that is evil. so we are not so different after all.
2) As for the current political imbalance in the world After WW2 Russian land and territories had expanded and continued to expand, some 40 years later it crumbled people of the region wanted their independence Germany wanted to re-unite its people. How far are we in Europe going to go must we all become the same, The same measurements, Currency, Drive on the same side of the road, and with the English language being taught as a matter of course throughout Europe are all the European countries going to give up their own language in time. I hope not for that it a part of what makes you what you are, your heritage. Is building another supper power really the answer.
We can embrace the differences between us it does not stop us, and eventually the world, speaking as one, Protecting all that is good and rising as one against all that is evil.
The U.S.A is unique it is a relatively new nation born from settlers from many countries and cultures who decided to build a new and great nation the need to become a supper power was born of old enemies and perceived threats from them, but old enemies can become new friends, Germany and Japan are a prime example.
Australia is another example convicts were sent to pineal colonies and guarded by solders settlers traveled there in thousands to build an new life and they overcame all obstacles To built a great nation.
My dream if you like is that of a world of different people sharing all that is different about them, living in peace and harmony together. where there will be only one supper power, the human race itself.
Thanks for your comments

Hi DragonMage
Glad you took the risk
I Decided to start this thread because I care about and value all human life regardless of race creed or colour I look at my grandson and pray he will not have to die in some distant land just because we cant settle our differences in a peaceable manor.
Thanks

Hi Cloudbringer
Not too sure about the beacon hope perhaps a little spark. But who knows what will grow if enough people really want peace. ( I noticed some spelling mistakes of my own in my first post )
Thanks

Hi Fljotsdale
I dont expect everyone to agree with all that I say that is whole the point of posting a topic for discussion, to agree to disagree on some points but to find that common ground between us.
Thanks

This again is only my opinion what’s yours? agree? disagree? please tell us, Post it.
But please keep it friendly and inoffensive for if we cant here what hope is there.


[This message has been edited by Black Widow (edited 10-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Black Widow (edited 10-25-2001).]

Hey! Another grandmother! That is just how I feel about mine. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif


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Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

Hi Fljotsdale
Dont worry you are not the first person to mistake me for a female, but I am a
Granddad I chose Black Widow (the spider) because I was nicknamed spider.http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hihi.gif

Oops! Sorry! Yeah, I guess there are as many male black widow spiders as female! Or, er, the dining habits of female spiders being a little dubious.... maybe there aren't!
Nice to meet you, granddad! Do you only have one grandchild? I have two, 18 and 10, both boys. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
And, um, do you play computer games as well, or are you just here for the conversation? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.
Here be Dragons.
"If I say something to you and it can be taken two ways, and one of those ways upsets you...I meant the other one." (lifted from a post by Dragon Mage!)