[Timber Loftis]

1. Let's keep Congress and the ESA out of this - I am not in the business of defending big government.

2. True, the shrimper owns the turtles as much as I or you do. But, he is the one who chose to "take" them, for a profit (in that it is cheaper to use trawlers if you don't worry about turtles). Therefore, he needs to compensate me and you for what we all owned but he got the benefit of using. Same is true with clean air, clean water, clean land, and all trees, resources (mineral and oil and otherwise) and species. They are resources, and "mining" them brings profit. Pay for your inputs, damnit, don't make your dime standing on my back.

3. By chosing not to destroy, you and I do no harm to others. When the farmer plants a potato and grows it, he does not destroy. But, when he sprays fertilizer and contaminates our water, he does. We all own the water, and he owes everone else for what he stole from them. That's very simple. I'm not demanding he NOT use, I am demanding he pay for the things he takes when he uses.

Your argument that I owe him for requiring him not would be true if I were requiring him not to use. But, you twisted my meaning by playing on the meaning of "use" and tried to turn the argument on its head by saying I was forcing him to not plant potatos. I'm not. I'm making him pay me and you for any resources he takes from the land. If he lets BigDirtCo dump benzene on his land for a fee, he has profited to our detriment and taken something from us. And, I simply want to be recompensated.

4. As for owners having no vested interest to pollute their properties, that is a falsehood your conservative brainwashings have led you to believe. Tell it to Amoco, who completely destroys the land a refinery sits on because the refinery makes more money than the land. Tell it to all of the turn-of-the-century MGP plants where I'm currently litigating the cleanup of cancer-causing coal tar that was found by kids digging in the sandbox at their local park. As a side note, this is a byproduct of the fact we cannot know the real value of a resource because we cannot see the future. You did not refute that, I'll note. But, some very profitable land uses absolutely demand you take public goods. There is a vested interest in harming "your" land. Fine. Take the public goods. And pay for them.

5. It is not hyperbole. Try getting a good cut of swordfish. Unless it's aquaculture, you can't find any. Right now in the Atlantic, dozens of 100-mile long-lines dangle to catch fish, but also kill Dolphins at an alarming rate. We HAVE raped the planet, and are in the middle of the biggest extinction since a comet hit the earth with the force of 100 nukes and killed off the dinosaurs, all caused by the hand of man. We are a disease, and as I have said before, if I had the button in my hand that would kill of 1/2 of us right now, I'd push it for the greater good (even if I knew for sure I was on the hit list). We grow like bacteria, and are incapable of living in equilibrium with our environment. I don't hate myself, I hate my species. There, you drug it out of me.

It is our job as a group to reason our way into making a proper rules system that limits our self-destruction. And it is imperative that we realize that trusting individuals and companies to make the right decisions for our good resulted in 7-year-old textile workers losing limbs in machines based on some abjectly stupid "right to contract" bullshit. And, I'll note, our companies still support this bullshit by fleeing the rules here to go kill children elsewhere.

My statement is simple: pay for public goods you take.

I'm weary of repeating myself. Sorry, I just don't have the energy any more.

[ 04-23-2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]