Possible HUGE Discovery with Bows vs Crossbows

[Butterfingers]

I have worked for years as a profesional beta tester. I am well skilled in hunting down bugs.

And, I think I found a HUGE one, but, I need you folks to help me out with some confirmation etc.

On a whim, knowing something was fishy with bows and crossbows, I created a Ranger in BG1. To start, I purchased a long bow and a regular crossbow. (Not a heavy crossbow) I also purchased some arrows and bolts. I saved the game, and, brought him into BG2.

I used the pause trick to keep all his equipment in Jon's Funhouse. The first go round, I had Grandmastery in xbows.

After running around pasting goblins and such, and getting some good numbers with the lesser clay golems, I figured I was averaging 13 damage a shot with no enchantments what so ever on my weapons.

I restarted the game, did the pause trick again, this time, Grandmastery in longbows.

I ran around playing Rambo with Goblins and the Clay Golems. Now, I KNEW something was wrong, but, for a long time, I could not tell what exactly. But something was seriously WRONG.

I scrolled through the screens, looking at my numbers, and, noticed that I had rolled 1 twice for damage. I was trying to figure out an average. The 1 damage I had rolled twice escaped me as to it's meaning.

Then it struck me. The 1 it self WAS the problem. Aside from the fact I was only getting 5 damage on average. It came down to that one little lonely number. 1.

That 1 should have NEVER HAPPENED.

With both the Archer kit and Grandmastery adding damage, that roll of a 1 should have never happened. But it did happen. Not once, but twice.

Think about it here for a moment. A level 7 Archer with Grandmastery and his Archer kit bonuses should NEVER be able to roll a 1 for damage.

My conclusion? Arrows, bows, are bugged. Outside sources of damage, such as Grandmastery, kit bonuses, and possibly even extra bow damage is not added to the arrow. Perhaps it is limited to Archers, I don't know. I think I might try a fighter class with Grandmastery in bows.

If you folks could, please, try this your self and tell me your results. I might be a Mac only bug, but, I really doubt that, considering all the talk lately on the forums about this particular topic.

[Baros]

The plot thickens. It's getting like gravy.

Surely something like this couldn't have gone unnoticed for two years?

[Angelousss]

could they be resistant to the damage? especially the golems

[Bill26]

Are you sure the 1's weren't against creatures with damage resistance.

[Butterfingers]

Yes, the plot thickens, much like a bowl of turnip soup... Ooops... Been playing with Jan to much lately.

Further testing. I exported my Archer I already took though SoA and using the pause trick, set him loose in the Funhouse.

I had a really hard time. Not with the monsters mind you, but, trying to put a finger on what is fishy exactly.

He has three bows. Tugian, Tasheron, and Gasen.

Testing with Tugian and normal arrows, mixed bag. No spectacular numbers. Damage was ok, but, nothing to write home about. Damage with Tasheron and Gasen, well, HUGE improvement. Better numbers, much higher minimum damage. But why?

I tried shooting normal arrows with Gasen, but, I think the lightning damage screwed me up. So I tried again with Tasheron and normal arrows. Plinking away at golbins and mephits, I am getting piss poor minimum damage, far to low for an Archer with Grandmastery who is also of 17th level. Even rolled a 2 once. Now I know, with all the kit bonuses and GM, there should be no twos. Took the arrows out, shot magical phantom arrows. Min damage improved considerably. Overall damage was much the same. Tried Tasheron with +2 arrows. I know, no added damage, just covering my bases. Once again, terrible min damage. Tried Tugian with +2 on some dark dwarves. They do not like being test subjects and protested far to much. Awful min damage. Tried Tasheron again, no arrows. Min damage improved.

Possible conclusion? It's not the bows that are bugged, I think it's the arrows. Phantom arrows from Tasheron seemed to carry the Archer kit bonus damage, while the regular and +2 arrows did not. Testing with Gasen was a failure, it acts funny.

There is something wrong, possibly several things wrong, and, something else as well, something I am still trying to put my finger on. I get the feeling I might be missing something obvious. Perhaps not. But I can safely say there is something buggy with how damage from arrows is delivered.

[Arledrian]

This has been mentioned before. The grandmastery in bows bug is very well known. There's a fix for it on the net, you just have to look.

[Rataxes]

I have all of the common upgrades, including the Official ToB Patch and the ToB Baldurash Fixpack, whatever bug is in my game, is something that has not yet been fixed by those patches. I also have the Grand Mastery Patch, which restores the bonuses of the proficiency levels to those of BG1, perhaps the problem lies in that patch.

I can tell you right now that Proficiency does not seem to add any sort of bonuses for longbows, neither THAC0 nor damage was modified by it when I tested it with a lvl 34 Archer.

The Archer bonuses apply correctly in my game however. With a normal Long bow and normal arrows, I should have done 10-15 (1D6 + 9) damage, which matched with the damage range I witnessed when I tested it on various goblins, imps and NPC's in Irenicus dungeon. My THAC0, which was -12, also matched precisely with the theory that Long Bows do not get the proficiency bonuses.

Here's the most important part though - My ApR with the Long Bow was 3, a Long Bow has a base ApR of 2, and I had a +1 ApR bonus as a lvl 13+ Ranger. Thus, Long Bows do not even get the ApR Bonus that a Grand Master is entitled to.

For Crossbows however, Proficiency and Archer bonuses were added as they should, my damage range with a normal Light crossbow and normal bolts should've been 15-22 (1D8 + 9 + 5), and those numbers matched with my in-game results, fired thirty bolts and never saw a hit below 15 or above 22. Note that my THAC0 also sank to -15 when I switched to a crossbow, which makes perfect sense with the theory that Crossbows do get the Proficiency bonuses (GM Patch adds +5 Dmg and +3 THAC0 for Grand Mastery level).

Shortbows also get both the Proficiency bonuses and Archer bonuses, both the damage range (15-20) and the THAC0 matched perfectly with this theory.

Conclusion, Proficiency has absolutely no effect what so ever on Long Bows

[ 01-30-2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[NiceWorg]

Now this was new... makes me want to start a new game right away. And no profiency points to long bows, I should even change party construction. +5Dmg/+3Thac0.. losing that, might as well change to crossbows, especially when they follow the rules. This ended the wondering why my archie was so powerless.

[Butterfingers]

I don't have the Grandmastery Patch.

I am still doing more testing.

So far, Stumpy Stonenose, even though he is not an Archer so to speak, does fantastic damage. Oodles of damage.

What I wish I could test was a longbow that fired phantom arrows to see if kit bonuses and GM gets added. I am rather curious as to the effect after my earlier testing with Tasheron's phantom arrows. However, I have no way to do this.

[karlosovic]

what about say, a longbow +1 ? did it add the +1 damage and +1 thaco bunus it's supposed to ? what about arrows +1/2 ? do they add their bonuses ?
Is it just proficiency points that are left out or does any longbow/arrow combo just give you D6 dam ?