Magic or not ???

[Loudhy]

Originally posted by Scatter: I disagree that Bards and Gads aren't magic users. Maybe they're not casters, but you do not have a non-magic party there.

Ah Scatter, the old discussion.

I think it's not "real" magic because, the effects of many gadgets and instruments can easily generated in our "real" world. No one says that a violin player ,who makes auditors happy, is a magician. A high "shrill sound" that pains the ears and make you run away is simply produced by a high-frequency generator . Being wrapped in Duct Tape makes it impossible to move ....

Ever touched a capacitor ? The stored electricity can kill you and must I really say something about a lightning (rod) ?. Hypnosis ( aided by light ) is used in medical therapy.

Of course , there a some instruments with effects that cannot generated today but have you ever seen Star Trek or other SciFi films ? No one says that Captain Picard , who stops tectonic plate movement with a "modified tachyon beam", is a "Harry Potter" of the future. . And Boiling Blood ? Have you ever read the news what happens after a child said : Let's put the rabbit in the microwave oven ?

So what do you think ? Is using a lighning rod or using a vacuum pump magic or not ?

I know that some of the instruments have effect that cannot easily explained by physic but IIRC I read somewhere in a magazine that some special frequency can soften up the structure of materials (Armormelt).

Magic in my defininition do not use any additives , it's only produced by brain, movement of the hand and "mystic" words of power.

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[ 08-12-2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Loudhy ]

[Scatter]

actually the physical impossibility of the magnification of effect is what makes it magic. Besides, anything that alters your state with respect to magic (eg Magic Mirror, Mandolin o' Magus, Soulful Sax) by its very purpose is magical.

And that's a total lie, that magic has no additives, and since you brought in other worlds, i'll mention D&D, which made this whole idea popular to begin with. The magic system in D&D (at least the original, which i first played in '77) relies very heavily on physical components. (eg. a glass rod for lightning...)

[ 08-12-2004, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Scatter ]

Well, just a small note here. In Wiz 7, Bards were the ultimate class. They could have thieving and mapping skills, use instruements, and were able to cast spells. They were BS. So in Wiz8 they toned em down.

Now, with this said, can you really call instruements magic? I can see the arguement both ways, but I agree with both sides.

Physcially, having a bard or gadgeteer in a party with no casting capabilities, IMHO, is having a non-magic party. However, what gives them the magical party effect, is not their innate abilities, but using items. There is not a single drop of blood of magical energy in them, they are non-magical because they can't cast spells. They can use items to reproduce the same effects, but they cannot physically cast a spell.

So what I consider them to be is non-magical at the core, but they are magical on the outside. Just think of the gadgets/instruements as infinitely charged items of a certain spell.

[Scatter]

Yes, but a truly non-magical party consists of only Rogues and/or Fighters. And that is much more an accomplishment to Ascend than one with Bard(s) and/or Gad(s). Especially if you make them illiterate (unable to use scrolls.)

[Loudhy]

O.K. Scatter, that's an argument. If you say : A non-magic party do not use any help from scrolls, potions ( includes healing ) or other things ...

But than you also cannot use a plate+3 because 30% fire resistance is magic, too. And a sword with a kill of 5 % is somewhat magic too and cursed weapons or protection rings shouldn't be used because : How can a ring protect a fighter (without magic) ?

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[Scatter]

No, i didn't go that far; in fact i made sure they had a Pro Magica, too. The Scrolls thing was whimsy, added to make up for not making myself stay in Expert. And, indeed, the Rogue frequenlty invoked Rocket Stix and the like, as well, which list a spell in their item description windows.

Which is really the point; how the game itself views the issue. Your Peot's Lute contains a SPELL. Which is magic.

[Target]

This is a tough question.
I would just have to fall back on the argunment that bards and Gadgys don't use mana, and mana is where magic comes from. Just my 2 p's worth.
Also I would say with Scatters true non magic party you could throw in RFS as well, he has no magic and would add something different to fighter/rogue.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

This is kinda silly, isn't it?
The Bard instruments are all magically enchanted in my opinion in order give those effects. The Gadg stuff is a tricky call; how do you get Noxious Fumes from a porthole and pot with hinge? There's got to be some magic or engineering skill there.

[Nightwing]

To me the magic is in the ability to get the instraments to perform these spells. Any one can play a Harp but to get thease magical effects is the bards true magic. The gad. also, I can use duct tape like a pro but I can't paralyze someone from 40 feet away.

[SteelBow]

I'm still relatively new to Wiz8. It's actually my first Wizardry game.

However, I have an opinion on this subject.

I believe that the Bard is a magic using character for 2 reasons. I think it's the instruments that are imbued with the magical properties. This is why instruments do not function in the "no magic" zones.

I believe the Gadgeteer does NOT use magic. The gadgets "simulate" magic with technology or physics. Hasn't anyone noticed that gadgets still function in the "no magic" zones. If they were truly "magical" gadgets, they would also not function in these "zones"

Just my 2 cents worth.