France: headscarf ban stays

[dplax]

Note to mods: if you feel the topic is or becomes a religious discussion feel free to close it.

Source: CNN

PARIS, France -- A French government spokesman says France will not revoke a law banning Muslim head scarves in public schools, despite demands by a militant Islamic group holding two French journalists hostage in Iraq.

"The law will be applied," spokesman Jean-Francois Cope told Canal Plus television Monday, saying the nation would not compromise its national values in the pursuit of winning the hostages' release.

Radio France International's Christian Chesnot and Le Figaro's Georges Malbrunot were reported missing August 21 on their way from Baghdad to Najaf.

According to the Arabic-language network Al-Jazeera, the kidnappers are part of the same group that claimed to have kidnapped an Italian journalist, and killed him after Italy refused to withdraw its troops from Iraq.

The group has demanded France overturn a law banning Muslim students from wearing headscarves in public schools.

Al-Jazeera aired a video of the two journalists in captivity Saturday.

French President Jacques Chirac dispatched his foreign minister to the Middle East Sunday to try to obtain the release of the men.

Michel Barnier arrived in Cairo, Egypt, about 3 a.m. Monday local time, The Associated Press reported.

In a televised address, Chirac appealed to the kidnappers to release the pair, but did not directly respond to their reported demand that the ban on head scarves be overturned.

"France ensures equality, the respect and protection of the free practicing of all religions," he said.

"These values of respect and tolerance inspire our actions everywhere in the world ... They also inspired France's policy in Iraq."

Prime Minister Jean Pierre Raffarin told reporters: "Today, the whole nation is united because the life of two Frenchmen is at stake as well as freedom of expression and the values of the republic.

"From the first day, everything, let me repeat it, everything, has been done to obtain their release. The government is totally mobilized."

Earlier, Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin demanded the group, calling itself the Islamic Army in Iraq, release the pair.

"France is the country of the French revolution, of human rights," said de Villepin.

"France has never stopped fighting for the freedom of all, for tolerance and the respect of the human being.

"The French people as a whole, all origins and religions together, are together behind our compatriots Christian and Georges. Together we demand that they be set free."

French Muslim leaders said they stand with de Villepin.

"Today we live a sad moment for all the Muslims of France, because he who touches a human life touches the life of humanity as a whole," said Fouad Alaoui, vice president of the Union of French Muslim Organizations.

"I make a call of the hostage takers, in the name of Islam and God the gracious, not to betray the principles of Islam."

Dalil Boubaker, president of the French Muslim Council, said the Muslim community was "solid in its compassion" for the journalists and their families.

"We want to express our solidarity, and the union of the French country -- Muslim or not Muslim -- and to take this opportunity to join ourselves to this call, in this demand to the hostage takers, in the name of Islam, in the name of the most sacred, that human life is the most sacred gift from God, to spare the life of our compatriots," he said.

French Muslims have protested a law that takes effect when school starts this week that bars students from wearing anything that would signify their religious affiliation, including large crosses or Jewish skullcaps.

But Fatiha Ajbli of the Union of Islamic Organizations said it was "out of the question" for the headscarf issue to be "a pretext for criminal comportment."

"We refute the blackmail of taking hostages," she said.

A French government spokesman says France will not revoke a law banning Muslim head scarves in public schools.

[Nightwing]

I'm not sure I agree with France's decision to ban religious symbles in schools. I always looked at most religions to be based on the joys of life following whatever god they follow. It strikes me funny when France says "they are the country of human rights" and yet they take away a very basic right of expressing a persons individuality.

And shame on religions who can't tollerate others. If people are so secure in what they believe, then why do they feel the need to curtail others religion.

My wife was saying she didn't understand how the same basic religion (Muslim) could be killing each other and call it a mission from god. I reminded her that the christian religions have been doing that for a thousand years.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by dplax: PARIS, France -- A French government spokesman says France will not revoke a law banning Muslim head scarves in public schools

"Muslim headscarves"...

Oh so it's only about Muslims wearing headscarves? What, are they going to ask everyone about their religion and then decide who can wear something on their head and who can't? Or are they forbidding simple accessories? Why only outlaw "Muslim headscarves" and crucifix pendants then? Why not any kind of hat, hairband, necklace, bracelet? What if a girl was to wear a headscarf as a fashion statement? I simply think this law is dealing with a way too grey area. It tries to govern people's appearances. A friend of mine has a Muslim background (African Muslim mother, she herself is not a Muslim) and a lightly coloured skin. On bad hair days she does her sarcastic little "I'm a muslim" act and wears a scarf around her head. Should she be forbidden to do that? I'm white with blonde hair. Could *I* wear a scarf around my head? Is it OK because I'm not a scary Middle Easterner? Where to draw the line?
To me it reeks of discrimination. I'm agnostic but I don't give a shit if people display their religious symbols (crucifixes, stars of David, Hands of Fatima, whatever) in my face. It doesn't scare me and it doesn't play upon any xenophobic paranoia. If they forbid headscarves, they have a whole lot more to forbid (black metal bands shove THEIR beliefs in your face too - look at the texts on some Cradle of Filth T-shirts, to name just one example)

And shame on religions who can't tolerate others. If people are so secure in what they believe, then why do they feel the need to curtail others religion.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ 08-30-2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Timber Loftis]

Good for them for standing up to the demands.

Nightwing, how many things have you seen schools restrict kids from wearing? I've seen them get quite particular, and even engage in spontaneous rulemaking when a new t-shirt annoyed them. Most of these things are done for the safety of the school body, and with religious tensions what they are in an area that is quickly growing in muslinism, like France, this rule might make sense.

[Morgeruat]

without derailing this into a religious discussion on the differences between Islam and Christianity I'll tell you to read the Q'uran than read the Bible, and then come back and tell me which religion has at it's foundation warfare, slaying those who don't think as you do, etc as part of it's basic belief structure, not just as a "holy mission" that current church leaders decided was appropriate (ie the crusades, which no one who has read the bible could interpret as a warmongering attempt by Christ, as opposed to radical Islam which bases all of it's actions on the Q'uran, and the actions of Mohammed himself)

Back to the original intent of the thread, considering the amount of religious attacks, against jews, muslims, and many other groups I think it's a wise political move (attacks against jews alone are up over 700 by the beginning of july, as opposed to around 630 for last year) if it protects kids in school from being ganked because of their heritage, or beliefs, then I think it's an acceptable law.

[Melusine]

without derailing this into a religious discussion on the differences between Islam and Christianity I'll tell you to read the Q'uran than read the Bible, and then come back and tell me which religion has at it's foundation warfare, slaying those who don't think as you do, etc as part of it's basic belief structure, not just as a "holy mission" that current church leaders decided was appropriate (ie the crusades, which no one who has read the bible could interpret as a warmongering attempt by Christ, as opposed to radical Islam which bases all of it's actions on the Q'uran, and the actions of Mohammed himself)

Dude, you DID derail the topic into a religious debate. It is clear from your post what stance you take and you do discuss religious specifics in your first paragraph. Let's not get this topic closed...


Timber, I think you have a point, and schools do indeed sometimes forbid children to wear, say, baseball caps in class, but then that's a practice I have mixed feelings about as well. I can see why they would and I can see what gives them the right, but I also see what it could lead to. I also think that it's easier for a kid to leave off a baseball cap that has no special meaning to him, than it is for a girl to put off a headscarf which means a lot to her.
I know this example sounds ridiculous, but if it were decided that hair was offensive, and all children should shave their heads, they would feel terrible, naked and deprived of a personal way of expression. I imagine a Muslim girl forced to expose her hair would feel the same. It doesn't bother anyone that she covers her head does it? (burqas are another thing though, I agree there's a communication problem there). If you (generic you!) fear radical Muslims, don't you think they will hold on to their beliefs, whether you can tell it by their appearance or no?

[dplax]

@Melusine: actually the law bans all visibly religious clothing: crucifixes, jewish kappas and muslim headscarves. Also scarves can be worn as a fashion statement, it will be the school principles job to decide whether the item is religius or not. The law was passed because there was a lot of discrimination against jews and muslims because people could see they were of those religions. The law was in part made to protect them.

[Nightwing]

I see these "rules" all the time TL, but they are mostly set by the school districts not the state. It's just ironic that most religions are there for personal growth, and here, it is exactly what is preventing personal growth.

Living in the San Francisco bay area for 35 years I've seen so many rules about hair color and dress it drove me crazy. It is important to note, as you pointed out, this is all done for the kids safty and no other reason. I fully support that, it's just ironic.

[General Nosaj]

In my school breaking the basic dress code is frowned upon even though I do not go to a private school. However they would never think of banning Muslims from wearing headscarves. It is simply a matter of politcal correctness. The UK is extremely politically correct and moves away from anything that might make them look racist. Correct if I'm wrong but were or are the French not on the verge of going right wing in their last election? I think that is why they believe they can get away with banning headscarves.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by dplax: @Melusine: actually the law bans all visibly religious clothing: crucifixes, jewish kappas and muslim headscarves. Also scarves can be worn as a fashion statement, it will be the school principles job to decide whether the item is religius or not. The law was passed because there was a lot of discrimination against jews and muslims because people could see they were of those religions. The law was in part made to protect them.

I agree, dplax. It does seem that the rule is being evenly and fairly applied to all religions.

Of course, Christians aren't required to wear a crucifix by their religion...it is just a matter of personal expression. I don't know if the same is true for jewish kappas or muslim headscarves, but I believe both of those items do have a more integral significance to the followers of those faiths and that there are times these items are supposed to be worn. Don't know if attending school meets one of the required events or not - but France has placed itself in an "all or nothing" position. If it rescinds the restriction on muslim headscarves, it would have to rescind the law on ALL religious accessories (to be fair). So in this case, it seems as if it is being done to protect the children first and foremost, and is also being applied in a fair and consistent manner regardless of religious beliefs.