Israel VS. Lebanon

[Morgeruat]

Exactly BB, the "palestinian people" is a manufactured disenfranchisement and a look at the refugee policies of the ME's muslim countries clearly are designed to keep the "palestinians" from permanently resettling anywhere but "palestine" further enforcing the continuation of the violence and bloodshed, after all, When they've got "palestinians" dying and killing off the jews they don't have to dirty their own hands, or risk retaliation from the world at large for taking military action.

For instance Iraq attacking Kuwait, most of the civilised world showed up to put Iraq back in it's place very quickly, nothing of the sort has been done to aid Israel in their conflicts, the US pays a lot of lip service and supplies arms (and purchases ammunition from Israel) but has not sent troops in for peacekeeping or to aid any side (at least not in any official capacity) while at the same time Bush is seen walking around holding hands with Saudi Prince Abdullah link

Every time Israel comes to the bargaining table they make real tangible concessions in exchange for promises that are broken time and again.

[Melchior]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: Link. Looks like Syria and Iran are pretty sure it was a massive victory, those crazy cats.

Actually it's not that crazy. Analysers are suggesting that the biggest casualty of the war was the IDFs reputation as invincible. If the aim was surviving the clash, then Hezbollah did what they aimed, meaning success (not the same thing as victory, but along the same lines)

It seems the Israeli PM nixed the plan that would have blitzed Hezballah, going with the comparitively lame air raids over the south. The military are pissed.

But can you blame the PM?

The plan STARTED with bombing Beirut.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: For instance Iraq attacking Kuwait, most of the civilised world showed up to put Iraq back in it's place very quickly

You're preaching to the choir here - if Israel was sat on a huge pile of the black stuff then I'm sure the world would do the same for it.

BB, reply coming later.

[Black Baron]

When we had won the 1948 war we had acepted hundreds of thousands of refugees (jews that have immigrated) and had them successfully integrated into our society. In 1949 we were a very poor country, yet we had succeeded in integrating 800000 of refugees (that did not know hebrew too). Saudi arabia and all other countries do not contribute to the "organization of treating refugees" (or whatever it is called. i know that it exists) almost at all. They could have found solution to the miserable palestinian existance in a blink of the eye. They do not do it, and so the palestinians must live in refugee shelters. in all the years they did not contributed one dime to the palestinian welfare.

By the way the interal wars between the muslim states are largely ignored (exception is kuwait, and merely because of oil).
egypt vs yemen-250000 killed.
civil war in algeria -1mln killed
civil war in sudan-half a mln killed
Lybia vs chad-100000 killed
civil war in lebanon-150000 killed
Iraq vs kuwait-100000 killed


Israel vs every one- 75000 killed from 1948 till 2006.

A bit out of proportions? yes it is.

yet the attention of the world is focused on the palestinians.

I smell gazoline.
Then we are lectured about our conduct of war and our policies. Double and triple standarts.

Lets check out how our brave USA deals with problems similar to ours.
In the sixties there were some troubles in USA. 34 killed in LA, 20 in newarc, 43 in detroit. In 1968 USA government had to use 55000 policemen and soldiers. 46 killed and more than 21000 were arrested. in 1992 pronlems in LA- 51 dead in 3 days. the governor was criticized for not using more force.

in 1991 2 boys in maryland were caught hurling stones at passing cars. there were judged and found guilty and given 500 years in jail (!).

Yet all kinds of people from usa criticize us about our behaviour during intifadah and other wars. (that is apart from the abu gharib jail story and further additional war crimes carried by some part of usa army).
they should better be quiet.They made the same nessesary things as we did.

[Timber Loftis]

I'm wondering how stupid Israel had to be to even start military action against Lebanon.... um, I mean Hizbollah in Southern Lebanon.

Either outcome was bad for Israel:
(1) They beat up on Hizbollah, Hizbollah get the glory of being martyrs -- everyone in the middle east hates Israel more for beating up on its poorer neighbors yet again again again, and everyone rallies behind Lebanon;

or

(2) Israel doesn't completely thrash Hizbollah, Hizbollah gets in a good shot or two, there is a "cease fire" with both sides declaring victory, and Israel looks like the big chump who couldn't beat up on lowly street fighting terrorist, despite having all the greatest military might that Zion's coffers can muster -- now they rally behind Hizbollah not as martyrs, but as the courageous and successful underdogs who took on the odds and did not lose.

There was no good outcome for Israel the moment the tanks started rolling.

[johnny]

I bet israel would have settled for outcome number 1. I mean could they be hated even more ? And do they really care ?

I thought not.

[Thoran]

regarding BB's 2 posts since my last post:

This discussion has nothing to do with the USA or it's policies (although US support for Israel is certainly a distant part of it).

And it's another big fat red herring to suggest that actions taken by the US government somehow invalidate the opinion of American citizens.

So with Herring and Ad Hominem properly disposed of... your last two posts said three things

To paraphrase:
-"Arabs hate Jews but not because of the creation of Israel",
-"eradicating the Palestinians is a viable strategy"
-"the Arab nations should take in the Palestinian refugee's (more implied than stated, but for 'fixing the problem' that's just about the only tool available to them)"

The idea that the Arab hatred for Jews is somehow unrelated to the Israeli/Palestinian land problem has no historical basis, even your own examples are all clearly related to the establishment of Israel. Before that Arabs happily fought themselves but rarely became a problem for the rest of the world (unless they were invaded as in the Crusades). I'm not saying that parts of the Islamic world aren't agressive and expansionist... just that the moderate Islamic world sees this as a motivating factor around radicalization, and DEFINITELY a motivating factor for funding issues. If the Land issues were resolved to a reasonable extent, the radicals wouldn't go away... but they'd lose one of their prime fundrasing issues.

The idea that "Nasrallah (Hezbollah) wants to eradicate us so it's ok for us to eradicate them" is... well... it's illogical. Hezbollah is a popular movement, you can't 'eradicate' a popular movement with any means short of genocide, and the idea that Jews would ever contemplate genocide is... well... wrong. Even ignoring that, neither side in this conflict would ever be allowed to commit such an act... both sides have too much support from powerful entities on the International Stage. Unlike Africa (who everyone seems able to ignore), Machete wielding Arabs or Jews executing entire towns would never be tolerated.

The 'solution' you propose to the Palestinian problem (that other Arab countries find a solution) sounds an aweful lot like Iran's solution (that Western nations find a solution for the Israeli problem... by moving you all to Germany)... other than the little detail regarding which side vacates the premesis.

Both Arabs and Isreali's can point to real reasons to hate the other group, but using those things to justify not trying to achieve peace is just going to leave you in an endless cycle of violence with ever increasing lethality.

[ 08-21-2006, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Thoran: Before that Arabs happily fought themselves but rarely became a problem for the rest of the world (unless they were invaded as in the Crusades).

The crusades were a military response to several hundred years of muslim conquest and invasion BY the muslims themselves, do you honestly think the middle east, egypt, africa, et al willingly converted, or do you think they were invaded and converted at swordpoint (or forced to live as second class citizens). Europe heard little from muslim expansionism after the crusades, but that doesn't mean it ever stopped, it just changed directions for a while(look at pakistan, india, malaysia, indonesia, etc)

[Lucern]

Nice post Thoran.

Morg...I've heard that hypothesis before, but that's all it is currently. I've only read it from an extremely biased (probably crypto-racist) pseudo-historian/activist. It's not that I think it's wrong, it's that I think the author lets the point silence the complex reasons that actually lead to each crusade*. Consider trade route interests (particularly with the Knights Templar) and the mobilization or creation of collective anxieties about not only Muslims, but the often unarmed targets of the crusades: Jews. A quick search revealed massacres at Worms, Mainz, and York by crusaders. These aren't isolated or random violent acts, and it's only a simple reading of the Middle Ages that omits the social forces that explain them.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sourc...ews-mainz.html
http://ddickerson.igc.org/cliffords-tower.html
http://www.templarhistory.com/worms.html

Of course, this thread topic deserves to not be sidelined with such a minor point. My bad

*No historian worth his salt thinks he's unbiased, but this author has capitalized quite nicely on the animosity that his work addresses/inflames. He omits that which invalidate his ideology. That, and his sole focus on writing outside of peer-review publications, is my justification for calling him a pseudo-historian.

[Morgeruat]

*shrugs* my own research into unrelated topics (such as Vlad the Impaler, for instance) tends to support the research of the "pseudo-historian"

I didn't say that the crusaders didn't have axes to grind and skulls to crush, but the eastern churches were being systematically crushed by the islamic hordes, and a plea was made to Rome for help.