06-28-2001, 07:28 PM | #11 |
Elminster
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
Posts: 490
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The question is (and I'm sure was at the trial) could the 10 year olds understand that what they were doing was wrong? I would venture to say that most kids that age could understand that. Therefore, I believe they should still be held under control. I think their time in juvenile detention was just a waiting period before they were old enough for real prison.
------------------ Gaelic |
06-28-2001, 07:38 PM | #12 | |
Elminster
Join Date: June 2, 2001
Location: Tucked up in a hole somewhere.
Posts: 463
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Quote:
------------------ It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too. Man, that's a pisser. |
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06-28-2001, 07:59 PM | #13 |
Zhentarim Guard
Join Date: May 31, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 385
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To put these statements in context please remember that I am a forensic psychiatrist and am therefore trained in child development, the study of dangerous behaviour and the English legal system.
* These children HAVE served a standard period of time for a murder. To be eligible for parole after 8 years is normal. * The children were placed in a prison with much older inmates. It is a fact they will have been sexually abused on numerous occasions by older inmates. The danger of this WAS pointed out, but a senior politician overruled the justice system in order to score politcal points. * The father of the murdered child is publically PLEADING with people not to attack these children. He is saying committing more violent crimes only prolongs the tragedy and grief. * The only reason that so much money has been spent to secure new lives for thse children is the phenomenal outpouring of sheer venom and hate that has spewed out, fueled by the press for purely money making reasons. If the crowds could have got to these children they would have literally torn them apart, even BEFORE the trial. * Ten year old children have little real idea of what death is. This is even more so when they are from poorly educated backgrounds. Also, they have difficulty comprehending some one elses experiences - putting them selves in others shoes. * The boys were re-enacting scenes from a movie they should never have been allowed to watch, which was for over 18 year olds only. They had obviuosly been exposed to violent videos. * Psychological and psychiatric reports were ignored - not for justice or for legal reasons but by politicians in the intersts of winning votes. I cannot tell you what was in these reports as they are confidential but I did hear that there is far more to this case than was ever made public. I was appalled and revolted by the scenes of mass hysteria and hatred that happened just down the road from where I work. I know police officers and prision service officers were seriously assaulted by an out of control mob baying for blood. It saddens me to see the same vigilante attitudes expressed on this forum. It also saddens me to see people expressing a desire to violently break the law to achieve "vengeance" when even the poor father has pointed out that this helps no one. If someone DID torture and murder these two teenage boys - why would they be any less guilty than the boys were? ------------------ There is only one kiwidoc, accept no substitutes STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE www.judyhope.co.uk |
06-28-2001, 08:09 PM | #14 | |
Elminster
Join Date: June 2, 2001
Location: Tucked up in a hole somewhere.
Posts: 463
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Quote:
------------------ It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too. Man, that's a pisser. |
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06-28-2001, 08:16 PM | #15 |
Ironworks Atomic Moderator
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Age: 57
Posts: 9,005
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OK, I see what you are saying KiwiDoc. But I do think there is a difference between what those two boys did, and the motivations of someone who would murder the two boys. I mean, if anyone tried to kill those two murdering boys, it would be out grief, and retribution, whereas what the two boys did to James Bulger was uncalled for. What was THEIR motivation? There are certain humans out there are are just plain evil, and get off on killing for just the thrill of it. These people usually don't just shoot someone, they really get into it and stab, rip, and gouge their victims in their sick activities. These are people that I think this world could do without. Imagine if you were the mother of this kid, how you would feel knowing what he went through...
I respect everyone's opinions on this subject, this is just my personal opinion, and I do not want to come off as argumentative. Just stating how I feel on the topic. I have nothing against anyone who may disagree with me ------------------ |
06-28-2001, 08:39 PM | #16 |
Zhentarim Guard
Join Date: May 31, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 385
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Cavern Sniffer - it is highly debatable whether it is POSSIBLE for these boys to have committed cold blooded murder. By definition murder means you must have a full understanding of the consequences of your acts.
In my "professional" opinion it is not right to over rule the justice system of an entire country in just one case. The law is the law, and should not be bent or broken for political ends. If the law needs changing then do it through the proper channels. To set a precedent where politicians can over rule the law for all sorts of reasons is just scary to me. ladyzekke - Two points. First- the people who have attempted to kill these boys are NOT relatives of Jamie Bulger, nor are they even close friends of the family. These people do NOT have a reason to be overwhelmed with grief. They are people who cannot control their angry reactions and violent impulses, and who have seized on a "cause" that is not theirs. Are you advocating justice by the mob and throw away the law books? Secondly judging whether or not someone is "evil" is a long, complex process that involves far more detailed information than you have about these boys. In fact even after 8 years of training in psychiatry (AFTER getting my full medical qualifications) and 6 years of experience and further training in forensics I am only happy to make this judegment as part of a team. I freely admit I am not skilled enough to do it on my own. It is impossible to make this judgement on the basis of biaised and abridged news reports. ------------------ There is only one kiwidoc, accept no substitutes STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE www.judyhope.co.uk [This message has been edited by kiwidoc (edited 06-28-2001).] |
06-28-2001, 08:50 PM | #17 | |
Elminster
Join Date: June 2, 2001
Location: Tucked up in a hole somewhere.
Posts: 463
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Quote:
------------------ It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too. Man, that's a pisser. |
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06-28-2001, 08:59 PM | #18 |
Ironworks Atomic Moderator
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Age: 57
Posts: 9,005
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Well, myself, I am not a relative or friend of the victim either, but just picturing in my head what that poor baby went through, his life taken forever in such a violent way, makes me feel empathy, anger, and yes, a desire for vengeace and justice. They didn't just shoot this kid, they tortured him. I mean, when you were that age, did you ever think of doing such things? I certainly did not. Tis inhuman in many ways. And I experienced quite a lot of abuse when I was their age, and did feel hatred on a massive scale, but never acted out on it, as I knew what was wrong and what was right. I was determined to not become "one of them." Yes, I agree, some cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, but I think in many cases, they know the difference, but do not care, and feed their own sick desires. Yes I agree again, it can be difficult telling the difference between true evil, and mental/physical problems. But in the long run, if someone cannot be cured, no matter what his/her problem is, they are a danger to society, and that should be taken to account for, as many multiple offenders have gotten away with many crimes because they were deemed "parollable".
Ack! I hate to be disagreeable! As a phychiatrist, I respect your opinions, please do not take my above post wrong. Just how I feel is all on the subject, dunno, guess cause of my life's experiences and what I have personally learned...? ------------------ |
06-28-2001, 09:15 PM | #19 | ||
Elminster
Join Date: June 2, 2001
Location: Tucked up in a hole somewhere.
Posts: 463
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Quote:
Let me rephrase the question omitting words that can be sidestepped through descriptive technicalities such as the word murder. Quote:
------------------ It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too. Man, that's a pisser. |
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06-28-2001, 10:12 PM | #20 | ||
Zhentarim Guard
Join Date: June 4, 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posts: 340
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Quote:
As for the question, you are not really interested in whether I, or any respondent, thinks it is right or wrong to let these boys go, you are only using this thread as a soapbox for you to vent your anger and frustration. As for justice, it is meted out by the courts, and, the courts have decided that these two have served their time. Justice has been served. The laws that were used to determine this are laws that the people have determined. As an individual, and an American, I am frowned upon for my public acceptance of the death penalty as a form of justice. Not just by forum readers, but most of the civilized world. I have the strength of my convictions. So, to read a statement like "I dont condone death in anyway,but for these two I make an exception." tells me that though you profess a certain belief, you don't stand by it. Either you do believe in a thing, unequivocally, or you don't. Take a stand, then stick by it. A civilized nation implements the will of the people through the system of laws that are determined by the people. This is justice. Once the courts have meted out justice, anything else is considered vigilantism and/or vengeance. Both of which would involve the same type of criminal, abhorrent act that you are all expressing your anger and frustration over here. Cavern Sniffer, Moridin, LadyZekke, Sir Taliesin and Lavindathar. These two young men may have been reformed, maybe not. Either way, they have completed their sentence, as determined by the judicial process. Let them at least attempt to establish a life with some type of future.
------------------ [This message has been edited by DawnChaser (edited 06-28-2001).] |
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