White House says Pagans don't have loving hearts and don't care for the poor

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Cerek, Thanks for your thoughts! I had skimmed passed the Pagan Charity Network previously and didn't actually look at the activities they promoted or supported. May this is what he meant by promoting ideaology? If so, it makes more sense than implying that Pagans just don't care and would use the money to print up "pagan beleif tracts" or something. The nature of paganism lends to small groups (covens) gathering for worship and social activities. We have no real "central" organization and it would be soley on the initiative of an individual or a coven to start and maintain a charity. My concern with this gentleman's comments is two-fold. One, if I decided that I want to start a pagan charity to help the poor and sought to recieve help from the faith-based initiative funding to do so, I would be left out because I was part of a 'fringe' group. Two was just the fact that he seemed to paint Pagans with a negative brush, like we didn't care or something.Many pagans I know share the belief that giving is the way of nature and is a joyful, carefree thing to do. My coven down south had a yearly toy and can food drive and we gave what we gathered to the salvation army. We had some discussion of starting an official Pagan charity network with the sole mission to help the poor and needy, but it never materialized. If it had, would we have qualified for funds with this guy at the helm? My critism of the F.B.I. is not that it is a "bad" thing per se, but why not just give all charities the same weight. Instead of faith based intiative, why not call it "helping the poor initiative" and give both faith-based as well as secular charities the same chance to get government funds?

You raise some excellent points, Chewbacca. If you or your group DID decide to start your own "Help the Poor" foundation, then you certainly should qualify for funds under the F.B.I., but I agree that it is doubtful how much help you would recieve with Towey at the helm.

I also agreed that he DID paint pagans with a very broad (and very negative brush) and he was totally wrong and ignorant to do so.

As for the "fringe group" comment...I deliberately avoided that part in my first commentary, because I can see both sides of the issue. To the general public, paganism probably IS considered a "fringe" group. Most people may have heard of Wiccans, Druids, nature worshippers, or other forms of paganism, but it's doubtful that many people actually know anybody that follow those beliefs...much less consider them their friends. So - in that sense - I believe the general public would agree that paganism is a "fringe group". Like Towey, this is a perception based on ignorance of the facts, but I believe it is the common perception nonetheless.

However, from a pagan viewpoint, I can also understand why the term "fringe group" would be considered offensive. The label tends to trivialize the beliefs you have centered your life around. I know I certainly don't like it when similar comments about "religious fanaticism" are made about Christians and Christianity...although I have to admit that label carries far more truth than I care to admit at times.

So I can see the issue from both sides. While I don't it was completely incorrect for Towey to label paganism as a "fringe group", I do agree that he should have avoided that label altogether because of it's negative and offensive implication to those that consider themselves pagans.

[khazadman]

Wrong Chebacca. To help the poor is a conservative thing. To inslave them to a system that breaks down the family and makes them dependent on government largesse is the liberal way to "help" the poor. And I'm opposed to the government giving money to any charity, religious or otherwise.

[SpiritWarrior]

You know I'm so sick of ignorant people passing judgements on something which they have no connection to or understanding of whatsoever.

It's like someone who never had kids trying to understand parenthood.

[ 12-03-2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: SpiritWarrior ]

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I'd love to show this jerk just how much this pagan cares for the poor. Fringe group my ass!!!! We may be a minority of anywhere between 500,000- 10,000,000, but we ain't no freakin fringe group. What an ass full of pure religous prejudice and ignorance, this coming from James Towey, White House Deputy Assistant to the President and Director, Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. I knew the whole faith based initiative stank, but I didn't know how much. Link quote: Colby, from Centralia MO writes: Do you feel that Pagan faith based groups should be given the same considerations as any other group that seeks aid? Jim Towey I haven't run into a pagan faith-based group yet, much less a pagan group that cares for the poor! Once you make it clear to any applicant that public money must go to public purposes and can't be used to promote ideology, the fringe groups lose interest. Helping the poor is tough work and only those with loving hearts seem drawn to it.

[/QUOTE]FYI, in a country that has 270 million people, 10-500 thousand is a fringe group. You don't even accaunt for 1/270th of the population. However, saying they don't care for the poor is going over the line, thats a ridiculous statement and he should probably get a slap in the face.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Azimaith: FYI, in a country that has 270 million people, 10-500 thousand is a fringe group. You don't even accaunt for 1/270th of the population. However, saying they don't care for the poor is going over the line, thats a ridiculous statement and he should probably get a slap in the face.

FYI The number of Pagans in the U.S. is 500,000(low estimate) to 10,000,000 (high estimate). This doesn't not include Buddhists, Hindu's, or non-Abrahamic philosophical paths either. This makes pagans a minority, not a fringe group.

Dictionary defintion of fringe:

fringe ( P ) Pronunciation Key (frnj)
n.
1.A decorative border or edging of hanging threads, cords, or strips, often attached to a separate band.
2.Something that resembles such a border or edging.
3.A marginal, peripheral, or secondary part: “They like to hang out on the geographical fringes, the seedy outposts” (James Atlas).
4.Those members of a group or political party holding extreme views: the lunatic fringe.
5.Any of the light or dark bands produced by the diffraction or interference of light.
6.A fringe benefit.

Being a minority group doesn't not make one a fringe group. Pagans are not marginal, peripheral, not secondary to any other religion. We do not hold extreme veiws( typically). Using the word 'fringe group' to decribe pagans is wrong and misleading.

[ 12-03-2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by khazadman: Wrong Chebacca. To help the poor is a conservative thing. To inslave them to a system that breaks down the family and makes them dependent on government largesse is the liberal way to "help" the poor. And I'm opposed to the government giving money to any charity, religious or otherwise.

Well I didnt mean to imply that conservatives don't care for the poor, but that that conservative ideaology is usually against tax dollars used to help the poor. Sorry I wasn't exactly clear on this, but I thought it was implied considering the context of the topic at hand.

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Azimaith: FYI, in a country that has 270 million people, 10-500 thousand is a fringe group. You don't even accaunt for 1/270th of the population. However, saying they don't care for the poor is going over the line, thats a ridiculous statement and he should probably get a slap in the face.

FYI The number of Pagans in the U.S. is 500,000(low estimate) to 10,000,000 (high estimate). This doesn't not include Buddhists, Hindu's, or non-Abrahamic philosophical paths either. This makes pagans a minority, not a fringe group.

Dictionary defintion of fringe:

fringe ( P ) Pronunciation Key (frnj)
n.
1.A decorative border or edging of hanging threads, cords, or strips, often attached to a separate band.
2.Something that resembles such a border or edging.
3.A marginal, peripheral, or secondary part: “They like to hang out on the geographical fringes, the seedy outposts” (James Atlas).
4.Those members of a group or political party holding extreme views: the lunatic fringe.
5.Any of the light or dark bands produced by the diffraction or interference of light.
6.A fringe benefit.

Being a minority group doesn't not make one a fringe group. Pagans are not marginal, peripheral, not secondary to any other religion. We do not hold extreme veiws( typically). Using the word 'fringe group' to decribe pagans is wrong and misleading. [/QUOTE]I thought it said 500 to 10 thousand, not 500 thou to ten mill. Anyhow, he was obviously being a bigoted idiot when he said pagans don't care for the poor. He was wrong, thats the bottom line.

[Chewbacca]

How high up does the ignorance go?


Link

"I don't think witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made." G.W. Bush (R), as Governor of Texas. Interviewed on ABC's Good Morning America, 1999-JUN-24. He disapproved of Wiccan soldiers having been given the same religious rights as others in the military.

[Yorick]

I don't know mate.... dare I suggest a thicker skin might be an option? One just has to have a look at India (seeing as you've lumped Hinduism into Paganism, even though I wouldn't regard Hindus as "Pagan" and I don't believe they were being referred to in the quote).

Anyhow, one merely has to look at Hindu dominated India and to see the dearth of charities for the poor and opressed.

http://www.friesian.com/caste.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/

Why would they? Why would a Hindu Spiritual leader seek to assist the plight of the poor? Help a person that may "pollute" them?

It's a simple fact that what motivates a Christian Church and what motivates a Hindu Temple are two very different agendas. It's like comparing apples and oranges. It's not casting a slurr on individuals. There are arseholes who become christians, who end up rsimply being christian arseholes. Just as there are compassionate Hindus who IN SPITE of the caste system perpetuated by Hinduism work to ease the plight of the oppressed.

But the central assertions of the collective remain unchanged by the individuals contrary actions.

For futher thought, say there is a religion that preaches you must feed a certain number of homeless people each year to reach paradise at the end of your life.

Whether the person in that religion has a careing heart or not is irrelevent. Any actions they do for the homeless have nothing to do with their heart. They are following the teachings of their church so they reach paradise. However, it would be fair to say, that such a church would be remarkably effective at feeding the homeless, wouldn't it?

In Australia, it is PROVEN that christian church groups provide better counselling services than any other agency. Proven. The Very secular Australian government has, for a number of years, outsourced it's entire government social and counselling programs to the Catholic, Anglican, Baptist and Uniting Churches exclusively. Each of the four cis responsible for a quarter of Sydney each. One takes the north, another the south, another the east and the fourth the west.

I was amazed when I read it all. Australia doesn't have the religious traditions of America Chewbacca. Only recently we became a "Christian Coutry" with 51% declaring themselves Christian. For many years Christians were a minority. The "religious right" or whatever you want to call it, had nothing to do with the decision. (As I said in another post, I and others would regard Christianity as left wing)

The effectiveness of Christian Churches in providing these are PROVEN.

So... whatever mate. Sorry you got offended.

[Chewbacca]

Yorick,

It is not like I am saying that Christians suck at charity. What motivates people to help and how great a particular religion is at helping is not the issue here.

I find it ridiculuos to claim to be the 'best' at counseling or the 'best' at charity due religious affiliation. Helping people is NOT a freaking contest!


Also, I am not offended. I am righteously angry that an ignorant, seemingly intolerant, moron is in charge of my government's foray into somewhat 'socializing' religious charity and that this same lout has the audacity to imply that pagans don't have the heart to do the tough work involved in helping the needy. It has nothing to do with having thick skin, but has everything to do with having the motivation to speaking out to dispel prejudice and ignorance.

In addition, You may not think it takes heart,( I prefer the word compassion), to help the homeless but if you have ever taken a van ride with a fellow who hasn't showered in months after spending 30 minutes in sub-zero temperatures convincing him to come to a shelter, then you realize it can indeed take a lot of heart, alot of compassion, to do such work. No religion has exclusive claim on compassion and I would laugh anyone who claimed that their's did out of the building.

Finally if you look carefully at what I wrote, I included Hindus as pagans in quotation marks to make them distinct from typical western paganism but also to signify they are also a non-Abrahamic tradition like western paganism. I will save a discussion of the similiarities as well as the differences between Hinduism and, lets say, Wicca for another thread on another day. [img]smile.gif[/img]