Compassionate conservatism?

[John D Harris]

Here's Sen. Miller's reply to that question from the link you gave:

SEN. MILLER: That's also the press release they gave me to introduce him by. And I was very impressed with John Kerry when I first came to the Senate, because I knew this man was an authentic American hero. And anyone that has a Silver Star and Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts, I respect and admire and thank them for their service. But later I got to serve with this served with this man and I saw what kind of record he really did have in the Senate.

But let's make one thing clear, Tim. I am not for President Bush's re-election because I am against John Kerry. I am for President George W. Bush because he is the right man in the right place at the right time. He is the man who has had the backbone to stand up and defend America in possibly the worst time in all of our history. That's why I'm for him, because he's a strong leader. He understood that the best way to keep money back with people is to leave the money in their pockets and never take it to Washington in the first place. I'm for George W. Bush because of positive reasons, not negative reasons against John Kerry.


Lastnight I heard Sen. Miller interviewed by Alan Combs Sen. Miller's reply to the same question was the same with the addition of: "That's because I hadn't done the research on John Kerry yet, so yes I was wrong" (Paraphraised by me, the transcript isn't up yet.)

Now here's some questions for anybody that wants to come to the plate and see if they can take some fast balls straight down the pipe.
1)Is there anybody out there that can refute a single fact that Sen. Miller said about John Kerry's voting record?
2)Can anybody show where Sen. Miller said John Kerry was UNPATRIOTIC?(I can show where Sen. Miller questioned John Kerry's Judgment on voting for/agianst military matters but not his patriotism(sp?) )
3)Is there anything to dispute Sen. Miller and his resighting of John Kerry's record other then calling Sen. Miller names?

[Oblivion437]

Infact, Chris Matthews tried to shove him inna the wedge, to get him to say he did question his patriotism, but he never did, he kept saying it over and over, but Matthews wouldn't take a hint.

To me, Compassionate Conservatism is another way of saying: Moderate Liberalism...It's even closer in carbon-copy to the Demican platform, they're both moving ever closer to center, until...They'll collapse into eachother.

[Felix The Assassin]

The Seattle Times Accusing the Massachusetts senator of letting the United Nations dictate U.S. foreign policy, he added: "Kerry would let Paris decide when America needs defending."

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BAM! NOW I fully recognize what Sen Kerrys hidden agenda is!

[Yorick]

So is American politic so grey that you can change parties just like that?

He was a Democrat and then became Republican right? Isn't that the same as Bloomberg? Wasn't he a commited Democrat for years?

Wasn't Kerry trying to get McCain - a Republican - to be his veep? What the heck??? Is America really ruled by ONE party?

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: Is America really ruled by ONE party?

Yep...the Greenback party.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Yorick: So is American politic so grey that you can change parties just like that? He was a Democrat and then became Republican right? Isn't that the same as Bloomberg? Wasn't he a commited Democrat for years? Wasn't Kerry trying to get McCain - a Republican - to be his veep? What the heck??? Is America really ruled by ONE party?

I believe it was Will Rogers that said there ain't a dime's worth of differance between the Dems and the Reps.

[Felix The Assassin]

Nope, your are wrong Gab.
He will always be remembered as "The last Good Democrat"

He just fully understands that a flip-flop leader cannot overcome the current adversities of the world.

I don't full yagree with all of Ws plan, but I know he has the intestinal fortitude to do what needs to be done. And thanks to Timber, I have been able to voice my opionion, and share with others a way to avoid some of his plans on the environment. If the voice is strong enough, it will be heard.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: He just fully understands that a flip-flop leader cannot overcome the current adversities of the world.

And a flip-flopper like GW Bush can?

He was against nation-building then he is for it

He was against the DHS then he was for it

He was against the 9-11 commission then he was for it

He was for a final U.N resolution on Iraq then he didnt need it

He was for State self-determination with regards to gay marriage now he wants a federal amendment

He said we would win the war on terror, then said terrorism probably would never be defeated and then said the next day that it would!

I could go on and on and on and on....

Sorry to dispel the notion that Bush doesnt flip-flop...but he does.

edit- Besides all that...
I'll take a leader with a brain over one with intestinal fortitude anyday.

[ 09-05-2004, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Chewbacca]

1)Is there anybody out there that can refute a single fact that Sen. Miller said about John Kerry's voting record?

from Miller's speech: Listing all the weapon systems that Senator Kerry tried his best to shut down sounds like an auctioneer selling off our national security but Americans need to know the facts. The B-1 bomber, that Senator Kerry opposed, dropped 40 percent of the bombs in the first six months of Operation Enduring Freedom. The B-2 bomber, that Senator Kerry opposed, delivered air strikes against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Hussein's command post in Iraq. The F-14A Tomcats, that Senator Kerry opposed, shot down Khadifi's Libyan MIGs over the Gulf of Sidra. The modernized F-14D, that Senator Kerry opposed, delivered missile strikes against Tora Bora. The Apache helicopter, that Senator Kerry opposed, took out those Republican Guard tanks in Kuwait in the Gulf War. The F-15 Eagles, that Senator Kerry opposed, flew cover over our Nation's Capital and this very city after 9/11. I could go on and on and on: against the Patriot Missile that shot down Saddam Hussein's scud missiles over Israel; against the Aegis air-defense cruiser; against the Strategic Defense Initiative; against the Trident missile; against, against, against. This is the man who wants to be the Commander in Chief of our U.S. Armed Forces? U.S. forces armed with what? Spitballs?

Article from last winter!:

Link

Before George W. Bush's political operatives started pounding on John Kerry for voting against certain weapons systems during his years in the Senate, they should have taken a look at this quotation: After completing 20 planes for which we have begun procurement, we will shut down further production of the B-2 bomber. We will cancel the small ICBM program. We will cease production of new warheads for our sea-based ballistic missiles. We will stop all new production of the Peacekeeper [MX] missile. And we will not purchase any more advanced cruise missiles. … The reductions I have approved will save us an additional $50 billion over the next five years. By 1997 we will have cut defense by 30 percent since I took office. The speaker was President George H.W. Bush, the current president's father, in his State of the Union address on Jan. 28, 1992. They should also have looked up some testimony by Dick Cheney, the first President Bush's secretary of defense (and now vice president), three days later, boasting of similar slashings before the Senate Armed Services Committee: Overall, since I've been Secretary, we will have taken the five-year defense program down by well over $300 billion. That's the peace dividend. … And now we're adding to that another $50 billion … of so-called peace dividend. Cheney proceeded to lay into the then-Democratically controlled Congress for refusing to cut more weapons systems. Congress has let me cancel a few programs. But you've squabbled and sometimes bickered and horse-traded and ended up forcing me to spend money on weapons that don't fill a vital need in these times of tight budgets and new requirements. … You've directed me to buy more M-1s, F-14s, and F-16s—all great systems … but we have enough of them. The Republican operatives might also have noticed Gen. Colin Powell, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, at the same hearings, testifying about plans to cut Army divisions by one-third, Navy aircraft carriers by one-fifth, and active armed forces by half a million men and women, to say noting of "major reductions" in fighter wings and strategic bombers. Granted, these reductions were made in the wake of the Soviet Union's dissolution and the Cold War's demise. But that's just the point: Proposed cuts must be examined in context. A vote against a particular weapons system doesn't necessarily indicate indifference toward national defense. Looking at the weapons that the RNC says Kerry voted to cut, a good case could be made, certainly at the time, that some of them (the B-2 bomber and President Reagan's "Star Wars" missile-defense program) should have been cut. As for the others (the M-1 tank and the F-14, F-15, and F-16 fighter planes, among others), Kerry didn't really vote to cut them. The claim about these votes was made in the Republican National Committee "Research Briefing" of Feb. 22. The report lists 13 weapons systems that Kerry voted to cut—the ones cited above, as well as Patriot air-defense missiles, Tomahawk cruise missiles, and AH64 Apache helicopters, among others. It is instructive, however, to look at the footnotes. Almost all of them cite Kerry's vote on Senate bill S. 3189 (CQ Vote No. 273) on Oct. 15, 1990. Do a Google search, and you will learn that S. 3189 was the Fiscal Year 1991 Defense Appropriations Act, and CQ Vote No. 273 was a vote on the entire bill. There was no vote on those weapons systems specifically. On a couple of the weapons, the RNC report cites H.R. 5803 and H.R. 2126. Look those up. They turn out to be votes on the House-Senate conference committee reports for the defense appropriations bills in October 1990 (the same year as S. 3189) and September 1995. In other words, Kerry was one of 16 senators (including five Republicans) to vote against a defense appropriations bill 14 years ago. He was also one of an unspecified number of senators to vote against a conference report on a defense bill nine years ago. The RNC takes these facts and extrapolates from them that he voted against a dozen weapons systems that were in those bills. The Republicans could have claimed, with equal logic, that Kerry voted to abolish the entire U.S. armed forces, but that might have raised suspicions. Claiming that he opposed a list of specific weapons systems has an air of plausibility. On close examination, though, it reeks of rank dishonesty. Another bit of dishonesty is RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie's claim, at a news conference today, that in 1995, Kerry voted to cut $1.5 billion from the intelligence budget. John Pike, who runs the invaluable globalsecurity.org Web site, told me what that cut was about: The Air Force's National Reconnaissance Office had appropriated that much money to operate a spy satellite that, as things turned out, it never launched. So the Senate passed an amendment rescinding the money—not to cancel a program, but to get a refund on a program that the NRO had canceled. Kerry voted for the amendment, as did a majority of his colleagues. An examination of Kerry's real voting record during his 20 years in the Senate indicates that he did vote to restrict or cut certain weapons systems. From 1989-92, he supported amendments to halt production of the B-2 stealth bomber. (In 1992, George H.W. Bush halted it himself.) It is true that the B-2 came in handy during the recent war in Iraq—but for reasons having nothing to do with its original rationale. The B-2 came into being as an airplane that would drop nuclear bombs on the Soviet Union. The program was very controversial at the time. It was extremely expensive. Its stealth technology had serious technical bugs. More to the point, a grand debate was raging in defense circles at the time over whether, in an age of intercontinental ballistic missiles and long-range cruise missiles, the United States needed any new bomber that would fly into the Soviet Union's heavily defended airspace. The debate was not just between hawks and doves; advocates and critics could be found among both. In the latest war, B-2s—modified to carry conventional munitions—were among the planes that dropped smart bombs on Iraq. But that was like hopping in the Lincoln stretch limo to drop Grandma off at church. As for the other stealth plane used in both Iraq wars—the F-117, which was designed for non-nuclear missions—there is no indication that Kerry ever opposed it. The RNC doesn't mention it, but Kerry also supported amendments to limit (but not kill) funding for President Reagan's fanciful (and eventually much-altered) "Star Wars" missile-defense system. Kerry sponsored amendments to ban tests of anti-satellite weapons, as long as the Soviet Union also refrained from testing. In retrospect, trying to limit the vulnerability of satellites was a very good idea since many of our smart bombs are guided to their targets by signals from satellites. Kerry also voted for amendments to restrict the deployment of the MX missile (Reagan changed its deployment plan several times, and Bush finally stopped the program altogether) and to ban the production of nerve-gas weapons. At the same time, in 1991, Kerry opposed an amendment to impose an arbitrary 2 percent cut in the military budget. In 1992, he opposed an amendment to cut Pentagon intelligence programs by $1 billion. In 1994, he voted against a motion to cut $30.5 billion from the defense budget over the next five years and to redistribute the money to programs for education and the disabled. That same year, he opposed an amendment to postpone construction of a new aircraft carrier. In 1996, he opposed a motion to cut six F-18 jet fighters from the budget. In 1999, he voted against a motion to terminate the Trident II missile. (Interestingly, the F-18 and Trident II are among the weapons systems that the RNC claims Kerry opposed.) Are there votes in Kerry's 20-year record as a senator that might look embarrassing in retrospect? Probably. But these are not the ones.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: I don't full yagree with all of Ws plan, but I know he has the intestinal fortitude to do what needs to be done.

What needs to be done?