Do Germans have nazis?

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Zbyszek: SC: I am not saying that you dont believe. You try to change, you are peacefull but what do you change: you dont eat meat, you do not have car and what is the reaction of world about it? You protect against killing whales. Do Norwegians or Japanese care? I am saying - this is insignificant. The problem is so-called freedom, freedom to procreate, cut tree, to consume, freedom to migrate. People do not want to learn, to listen, to feel responsible. They have to be forced. Btw. Lets close all nuclear plants, do you think that many trees would survive?

Zyb, the human race is never going to learn anything by coercian. What do you want to do, impose the death penalty for having more than one or two children? Beat people on the soles of their feet for drinking too much cola? (Actually, this second one I could be in agreement with )

This is not a global army camp we're living in here... And the reasons people do things are different all over the world. For example, 'slash and burn' agriculture carried out by native peoples who have no other means of survival is somewhat different to slash and burn carried out by large corporations who are making a financial killing in the third world, profiting from developing countries poverty and desperation to make massive profits.

Change comes from within, first of all. I sure as hell can't hope to see change in the world if I can't be bothered to make changes in my own life. And so I do, slowly and surely. And together with others, I ask my government to make it easier for both myself and other people to make those changes in their lives. That is what activism is about. Often it is a quiet matter, (more often than not, in fact) writing letters, emails, standing outside supermarkets on a saturday morning, outside garages...... Ocassionally there is an opportunity to make our voice heard in a bigger way, to come together to do that, and that's when you get the big protests, - usually when there is something going on that merits a protest.

In Seattle - we protested about the sidelining of the developing countries when it came to trade liberalisation. Now it looks like DC's are on the agenda big time for the coming round, which begins in Quatar on 9th November. There's a lot more I could say about liberalisation here, but let that go for the minute.

The problems we are seeing in our world come from our attitude towards the environment and each other - the fact that we have lost sight of the fact that 'we are all one' and treat each other as separate beings, to be competed with. Until we lose this mentality we will continue to have massive problems, which are going to get worse as the population grows and our natural resources are used up faster and faster....

Either we learn, or we don't. If we don't, we're history. Simple.

As far as nuclear goes, a few words: Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, perfect targets for terrorists, generators of waste, accident prone, expensive.

I agree that the alternative sources of fuel currently available are sure not going to meet our energy needs as they currently stand WHICH IS WHY GOVERNMENTS AND BIG BUSINESS SHOULD BE INVESTING IN FAR MORE RESEARCH THAN IS CURRENTLY THE CASE. (Sorry, not shouting, just wanted to make this point clear.)

The current situation is mad. We know we have a problem with global warming and finite energy sources. Human beings are ingenious like no other species, yet we can't get to grips with the energy problem in a clean, non polluting way!?

Bullcrap!!!! Oil and gas are cheap, and huge profit spinners, and there's still no major incentive to go for clean alternatives, if you leave our long term future on this planet out of the equation, which most govt and companies are all too happy to do. Let's live for today and tomorrow can just go take care of itself - never mind our kids and grandkids.

So that is where I'm coming from, Zyb. Huggies from the Cheetah unit, now prowling round and kicking cones moodily whilst lashing tail.....

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Most Ecstatic Mistress of the Illuminati

Feisty Kitten Mascot and Succourer of the Waifs and Strays Hugging and Smooching Club

Don't Dream It, Be It (Easy, - Just Keep Choosing the Same Thing...)

[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 10-30-2001).]

OMG Nazis demonstrating the attck of a non-aryan country, I could cry!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a lenthy personal story about nazis, demonstrators, non-violent action, riots and police. It may have little todo with the original topic, but I'll post it anyway just to put it forth and let others decide it relevance. Either way it was a defining event to me. It has a anti-nazi leaning to it.


In our current age people have used peacful protest and demonstration successfully to manifest change in goverment. It is a basic right under democratic self-goverment. I have been in the riot mentality, it is a game, an adrenilan rush, and a fallacy to real change. The police can be just as bad as the minority destructive element that is attracted to what are in spirit peaceful protests.

On January 17th 1991, Martin Luther King Jr. holiday here in America, Denver, Colorado to be exact. A throng of an estimated 10,000-20,000 of many many differnt races and classes gathered to honor and stand up for the Dream put forth by MLK, using his successful method of non-violent, non-destructive action to promote social change. It was a cold monday around 25 degrees f, and it all started in City park around a statue of the days namesake. A 1 mile or so march ensued from the statue to downtown Denver's main park past the gold-plated dome of the state's capital sitting upon its hill. The destination of the march was a large Greek style ampitheater about 3 city blocks from the capital building. Not every one who marched made it to what was supposed to be a peacful rally and celebration for tolerance, understanding and unity that took place there.

The capital building has surrounded by a temporary orange fence at the base of its hill. Upon the steps of this state house the klu klux klan and neo-nazi party staged an Anti-MLK Rally of thier own. Its was about 20-30 people blaring insults and ephitats towards other races mixed with retoric about "love" for the "white" race through loudspeakers. At the base of the hill behind the orange barrier the large march of mostly peaceful protestors passed down the main street in front of the capital, right passed their adversaries. I was one of them, and I recognized some of the skin-heads in business suits up on the stage. They arent the "klan" and dont hide thier face when trying to kill you.
Many people became angry and gathered at the base of the hill to show thier displeasure at the disrespect being show to them by a loud bunch of cowards that couldnt even find a holiday of their own to celebrate, so they decided to protest somebody elses. I stood among those angry demonstrators, enthralled by the danger in the air. I smoked a joint. Nobody had tried the fenced, the crowd seemed to just want to yell and boo, but it was growing.

When the Nazis left, word leaked out that they were loading on a jail bus one block away from the capital. Crowed-mentality took over. Several people ran towards that site and a few followed and then more! I got caught up with it and ran myself. The short street to where the jail bus was parked was blocked by barriers and a police car. I stopped and stood, in awe observing the following events. Several cops stood protecting the skinheads as the last of them got on the bus. Some of the demonstarters had rushed to that point overwhelming the few police and jumping upon the side of the bus as it departed from the scene. The wire-mesh reinforced windows were hammered upon by bald-fist and those that broke became portals for slurrs, spit, and a rotten egg or two. The bus drove got away from this mob and a few were injured, but the main surge of the crowd had just arrived and the object of thier ire had gone.

The police car barricade became the focus of the crowds anger, it was quickly turned over and its windows were smashed by the wooden roadblockes. Police darted about here and there with riot sheild in hand, being pelted with snowballs and rocks. I began to go back to the park with others, fleeing what was thought to be just a loud protest. People were still moving to the ampitheatre and I stopped a block or two away from it to catch my breathe for a moment or two. Suddenly a sound of war drums emenated from the top of the hill, the police were on thier way, hundreds of them in formation and full riot gear, pounding the heavy plastic riot sheild with wooden nightsticks. They launched tear gas into the park where there was no riot. Causing a panic like I have not seen again. I fled scattered with many others, Chaos Ruled. Violent urban riff-raff and gangbangers were attracted to the chance to get some skin heads, but after the nazis got away, small groups of them began targeting white people and other ethnicities in the crowd of MLK. Their violence hidden in the tear gas driven crowd that surged through the streets of downtown Denver, filled mostly with people who just wanted to escape.


The media gave this event about 15 seconds on the local news and wasnt mentioned nationally that I am aware of. Many were injured and it was a sore testimony to the dream of MLK. In future MLK rallies, I act as if the racist element doesnt exist and focus instead on the great many people who come out to support one another regardless of race. Both groups have a right to protest under the principles of American democracy. Riots have nothing to do with this right if it is to be exercized with peace and respect. I condemn riots, and I have been in one todo so.

[Zbyszek]

[QOUTE]
So that is where I'm coming from, Zyb. Huggies from the Cheetah unit, now prowling round and kicking cones moodily whilst lashing tail.....

[/QUOTE]

Lets hope it will not be me lashed by tail... Or you want to lash me to yourself

Back to nuclear energy. Of course there were accidents and for sure there were more of them in military industry, not mentioning sunk submarines with nuclear weapon and reactors. But newer technologies are safer, errors allow to build better protections for future. Russians just took Kursk submarine from the see - there ware no radiation leaks. Next step in technology would be reactors based on thermonuclear fusion. They will be cleaner, will not produce wastes. But potentially could be more dangerous in case of explosion. Do you think that people who oppose nuclar plants now will allow for such thermonuclear ones? In Poland after Chernobyl people opposed nuclear plants and we do not have ones. They dont even want to listen arguments. Thats why we have a lot of coal mines and plants. We have enormous brown coal mines/excavations. They dig really deep hole (many tens of meters) where you could hide medium size city. All underground water goes there, so: 1st there is no water anywhere in radius of many kilometers, 2nd it goes polluted, 3rd they have to pump it out of hole.
Coal industry: because most winds in our part of Europe go from west to east we pollute Ukraine and are polluted by Czech and Germany. Some forest in mountains in south of Poland have been completely destroyed by acid rains. I have been in Izerskie mounains - there is no single tree older then about 10-15 years. There are forests of dead trees. Situation is better now then 10 years ago, we are planting new trees. But imagine: you go whole day along some ridge and you can see everything, everywhere: no alive tree is higher then you. You look right and next ridge is also empty. Most of dead trees has fallen because of wind but sometimes you pass area where they didnt fall - it is like in horror movie even if there is sun and the sky is clear. There are no big animals, only some birds returned. This was one of ecological catastrophes our south and western friend gave us. Mountains next to the Izerskie: Karkonosze. People estimate that about 50% of trees are dead there. In some places there are only dead trees. In other threes are still green but have been amaged so bady that will not have healty seeds. In 20-30 years 80% of trees will be dead there. And Czechs wants to build new power plant near border (and we will got all polution) in this area.

As far as nuclear goes, a few words: Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, perfect targets for terrorists, generators of waste, accident prone, expensive.

Terrorist attacks: I can imagine that dams would be perfect targets, chemical industry, oil industry (not mentioning tankers). They can poison water supply, use biological weapon. They dont need nuclear industry. Nuclear plants are not expensive, only waste utilization is expensive and only because they can not be completely utilized, are highly corrosive and have a lot of elements with very long time of falling. But they can be stored in old mines without water or even one could throw them into sun (not near future ).

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Zyb, the human race is never going to learn anything by coercian. What do you want to do, impose the death penalty for having more than one or two children? Beat people on the soles of their feet for drinking too much cola? (Actually, this second one I could be in agreement with )

Coercian is very good. I lived in a county with coercian. Some suffer but generally I dont believe that people are ready for freedom. Look for Yugoslavia. 20 years ago and even 15 years ago it was a Paradise for me for us. They had more freedom then in any east-european country. They could travel, they had many articles we couldnt get, they didnt depend on Soviet Union. Why? They had Tito, he was oppressing them. He didnt allow for any ethinic or religious nosense. Tito died. Eastern regimes have fallen, western and muslim countries helped Croats and muslims and you know what was then, what is now. They have freedom. Serbs tried to make their freedom but had lost. Now Albanians try to make their freedom (with help of muslim countries and organization considered now (after 11th of September) as a terrorist ones.
Do you know that before fall over 6% of people there was saying they are Yugoslavians, not Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrans, Albanians, Hungarians, Macedonians or Slovenians. There were many mixed marriages. The best Albanian University was not in Albania but in Yugoslavia. What we have now? Freedom? Everyone could and in Kosovo still can kill other people.
Why not death penalty? I suppose you are against but I am not, I believe why the society has to pay, pay for prisons, for effects when we let crimnals free. I dont believe in modern judgement system.
In China drug dealers are shot, corruption on high scale is punished with ultimate penalty. People are not allowed to have more then one children. Even leaders of China (so-called) Communist Party dont know how many people they have: 1.3 billion or 1.6 billion (in country it is easier to bribe and have more children). They have to limit procreation. They know that they are responsible for China. They dont want to to wake up and have 2 or billions of people, mostly without work. They have to assure food for all Chinese.

Before fall of totalitarism in Poland we didnt have organized robbery, large corruption, gigantic economical crime, kidnappings, drugs. But there were repressions, coercian. Now we have freedom. Many people in Poland would be indignant with what I say, and I say that we should be grateful for Josef Stalin and communist regimes. They forced change of borders and more importantly they forced movement of people. Germans were moved by force to Germany and Ukrainians to Ukraine. Poles from Ukraine were moved to Poland.
I dont know if you know history of our part of Europe but there were big animosity between Polish people and Ukrainians. Our freud has long history. Between wars we had smaller part of todays Ukraine. We oppressed them, they fight agains us (like Israel and Palestinans). During second world war Germans supported Ukrainins and made massacrs of Polish people. Polish partisans murdered and burned Ukrainian villages, Ukrainians Polish villages. Ukrainian SS group was well known of special bestiality. We were mized together but were unable to solve our problems. After 50 years most old people died, most od Poles live in Poland, Ukrainians in Ukraine and we dont fight like in Balkans.

People do not want to understand, to learn, to share, to feel responsible. We think generally only about ourselves, about our needs. Some religious groups do not allow to learn about things they do not agree. We dont care much about future. The only way to save our future is a totalitarism. Total control of population growth, distribution of wealth, education.
Globalism is our only hope. Global totalitarism. Not global corporations moving wealth from countries to unknowns pockets.

You change yourself, you try. You cause that a few people in UK start to think about ecology. But in third countiers every day new people are born. They will grow in poverty and without education. Their countires will be not able to support them and will collaps. Their leader in mosque will tell them that western countries are devil. They will not ask you what do you think.

You may have no chance to reform them in a peaceful way.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Zbyszek: [QOUTE] So that is where I'm coming from, Zyb. Huggies from the Cheetah unit, now prowling round and kicking cones moodily whilst lashing tail.....

Lets hope it will not be me lashed by tail... Or you want to lash me to yourself

[/QUOTE]

I'll lash you to me, Zyb... That would be the most fun...

This is a very very interesting post. I'm going to print it out and read it again. Some of your points I believe I cannot reply to - I do not have the necessary knowledge of your part of the world. However, there are a couple of things I'd like to research a little....

If and when I visit Poland, perhaps with Tanya also??, I think we will have many fascinating discussions, Zyb. You seem to me to be a very thoughtful, concerned person - we are coming from different viewpoints and life experiences, and so we differ, of course, but fundamentally we both wish for a better world, and try desperately to see how that may be accomplished. I think that is where a lot of people on the forum are coming from - which is why they spend so much time debating.

I would say to them and you, and remind myself - debating and sharing views is important - so is action! We must be the change we want to see in the world.... (I'm sticking to that one...... anything else doesn't make sense to me... )

Lord of Light rules ok!!!!!!!!!


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Most Ecstatic Mistress of the Illuminati

Feisty Kitten Mascot and Succourer of the Waifs and Strays Hugging and Smooching Club

Don't Dream It, Be It (Easy, - Just Keep Choosing the Same Thing...)