CANF and Cuba

[Ronn_Bman]

From the CANG website

What does CANF Advocate?

CANF supports a non-violent transition to a pluralistic, market-based democracy in Cuba - one fostering economic prosperity with social justice - grounded in the rule of law, and constitutionally guaranteed protection for fundamental human rights as well as the social, political, and economic rights of the Cuban people.

CANF seeks to engage, support, and empower the Cuban people in ways that do not aid or legitimize the Castro regime. To that end, we advocate measures in direct support of Cuban civil society that fulfill the Cuban people's historic political aspirations and legitimate humanitarian needs, while maintaining international political and economic pressure and isolation of the Castro regime.

This is from their website, and I'm as inclined to believe this as I am to believe Castro.

Your friend who said "since they're not killing Americans", is absolutely not representative of Americans. There are people who say the wrong things, people who believe the wrong things, and people who do the wrong things. Sometimes people are merely uniformed other times they are malicious. They are in every country.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ryanamur]

It's very sad that many people get to die. Personnally, I consider this a fact of life. You see, in a totalitarian governement (like Cuba), the people only have one way of changing the governement: a coup. That's what Castro did and that's what the people who want to replace Castro are doing. It's the stabilizing effect if you want of this type of governement. We go to elect our leaders, they go to kill their leaders when they don't like them.

Now, of course the US will be involved and supporting this CANF endeavour. First, the US governement historically has a grudge towards Castro (and the sentiment is about the same on Castro's part). The same goes for many companies in the US who lost considerable sums of money following the Castro coup (revolution, terrorist or guerilla what ever you want to call it).

If you don't believe this, ask yourself why the US are still refusing to deal with Cuba. After all, they are one of the only country in the civilized world (I'm pretty sure they are the only one but I can't prove it right now) who refuse to recongnize the Castro governement.

Now, would it be surprising to see the US governement turning a blind eye to the activities of this terrorist group in Miami. No, not really. They are not commiting any crimes within the US (to their knowledge anyway) and they are trying to remove a governement that is considered rogue.

To the difference between Al-Queda and CANF. Al-Queda openly attacks the US from other countries and aims at the destruction of the US. CANF openly attacks Cuba from the US and aims at the removal of Castro. The big difference is of course in the aims: destruction vs removal.

When Bush went to congress he specificaly asked to get support to fight terrorism worldwide. He failed and was only granted power to pursue those who were involved in the 9-11 attacks and who will attack the US in the future. It's not a carte-blanche like he hoped for.

Let's now consider the action statue. According to Bush, any nation that support anti-US terrorist will be attacked. This would mean that it would be totally acceptable for Castro, if he had the means, to indiscriminantly atttack the US and put in a pro-Castro governement. I'm sorry to say but given the US present and past record, this action would be totally legit and acceptable. Bush opened up a can of worm that should have stayed closed and sealed for a very long time...

Finally, to the double standard. What you have to understand is that the US (and any other country on the face of this Earth) will only act in the preservation of their best interest as assessed by the governement. Bush and his administration believe that removing the Taliban and replacing them with a pro-US governement in this war against terrorism is in the best interest of their country (I don't agree but that's beside the point here). So why the double standard. To remove Castro is also in the best interest of the US and so is to help the NA. Therefore, those people are supported. Is it juste, moral and commandible? No, it's politics.

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
[b]
Your friend who said "since they're not killing Americans", is absolutely not representative of Americans.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

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I partly agree with this statement. It's partly true and partly false. The American governement will only act in a way that support the best interest of the state and the governement. Ask yourself why the US got involved in the Israel-Palestinian nightmare created by the UK and the UN and you'll see what I mean. But let's stick to the point at end. Why are the US involved in this war against Al-Queda? Because they killed Americans and will try to do so in the future (detrimental to US interest). Why are they not trying to destroy the CANF? Because they are going after Castro and killing they are not gonig after Americans in the process (best interest). Do you think the US governement would still be turning a blind eye to it if the CANF started to plant bombs and destroy downtown Miami? I don't think so.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryanamur:


I partly agree with this statement. It's partly true and partly false. The American governement will only act in a way that support the best interest of the state and the governement. Ask yourself why the US got involved in the Israel-Palestinian nightmare created by the UK and the UN and you'll see what I mean. But let's stick to the point at end. Why are the US involved in this war against Al-Queda? Because they killed Americans and will try to do so in the future (detrimental to US interest). Why are they not trying to destroy the CANF? Because they are going after Castro and killing they are not gonig after Americans in the process (best interest). Do you think the US governement would still be turning a blind eye to it if the CANF started to plant bombs and destroy downtown Miami? I don't think so.

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We have agreed before that the US government, as all other governments, does what it does in the best interest of the US, but my statement is completely true because it was not about the US government and it's policies or actions, but instead about individual Americans.

As to the CANF, why should anyone believe what Castro says about an organization that is against him anymore than they should believe what the CANF claims? I don't know much about them, but I do know peaceful opposition organizations are just as easy to blame as organizations which only claim to be peaceful.


CANF-What drives our work?

In 1959, Fidel Castro - who led the armed wing of a broad-based opposition movement against the Batista dictatorship - seized power in Cuba on behalf of a popular effort premised on the restoration of Cuba's constitutional democracy. Instead of holding promised free elections, Castro and a small circle of collaborators proceeded to discard the progressive Cuban Constitution of 1940, abolished all political parties, and destroyed the autonomous institutions of Cuban civil society.

This much we know to be true from history.

*continued*

Gone were the free press (including over 300 newspapers across the island) and freedom of expression, the autonomous universities and the academic freedom that thrived therein, many of the churches and all religious schooling (and the religious freedom that they fostered), and the vast web of voluntary civic and professional organizations that had abounded in Cuba since before independence. Gone too were the independent labor unions and the hard-won labor rights codified by the Constitution of 1940, all political parties (except for Batista's former allies - the Communist Party), and all forms of democratic politics.

In the process of snuffing out every last spark of independence that remained in Cuban society, the new regime systematically did away with the customary rights Cubans had enjoyed since the dawn of the Republic, carrying out a ruthless campaign to silence all dissent. Challengers within the revolutionary armed forces and the leadership of the opposition were executed, relegated to Castro's gulag, or forced into exile.

Forging an alliance with the then-Soviet Union, Castro declared a communist-totalitarian state and placed himself at the helm of a reign of terror that has caused more than 100,000 Cubans to lose their lives and separated a nation by forcing almost two million Cubans into exile.

CANF embodies the struggle of so many Cubans -and friends of freedom alike - who seek to end more than forty years of totalitarian rule that has silenced, impoverished and brutalized the Cuban people. CANF unites thousands who, willing to share the benefits and blessings of living in free societies, act on their sense of duty to help bring freedom and a dream of a better future to the people of Cuba.

Propaganda? To some degree at the very least, but is it more propaganda and less truthful than Castro's claims? Probably not.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


We have agreed before that the US government, as all other governments, does what it does in the best interest of the US, but my statement is completely true because it was not about the US government and it's policies or actions, but instead about individual Americans.

As to the CANF, why should anyone believe what Castro says about an organization that is against him anymore than they should believe what the CANF claims? I don't know much about them, but I do know peaceful opposition organizations are just as easy to blame as organizations which only claim to be peaceful.

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Ronn, you seem to forget the basic principle of a democratic system: representation of the people. What the American government does is representative of what the American population believes. The same goes for every other democratic country in this world. Yes, there is politics. However, you're governement would not be in place wouldn't it be for the people! The blame (or praise) that rests on the governement ultimately rests on the people in a democratic society!

Personnally, I don't believe Castro anymore than the CANF: it's politics and propaganda on both sides [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryanamur:


Ronn, you seem to forget the basic principle of a democratic system: representation of the people. What the American government does is representative of what the American population believes. The same goes for every other democratic country in this world. Yes, there is politics. However, you're governement would not be in place wouldn't it be for the people! The blame (or praise) that rests on the governement ultimately rests on the people in a democratic society!

Personnally, I don't believe Castro anymore than the CANF: it's politics and propaganda on both sides [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

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I haven't forgotten. Not only that, but I can agree with you [img]smile.gif[/img]

The point I was trying to make was about something Barry's American friend had said, "American's think killing is ok as long as you aren't killing Americans." This is not what American's think.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


I haven't forgotten. Not only that, but I can agree with you [img]smile.gif[/img]

The point I was trying to make was about something Barry's American friend had said, "American's think killing is ok as long as you aren't killing Americans." This is not what American's think.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

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Yeah, we agreed

For the point you're trying to make, I can agree with you that not all Americans believe that killing is OK. A nice compromise don't you think? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ronn_Bman]

Agreed

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryanamur:


I can agree with you that not all Americans believe that killing is OK.

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Just as a small clarification, the same could be said for Canadians, French, Germans, Australians, Talibans... you get the picture

[Barry the Sprout]

What I was trying to get at guys was that this isn't really a War on Terrorism as such. This is a war on certain terrorists who happen to attack western interests. Terrorists can kill Cubans and the US government will harbour them (and CANF have admitted it Ronn, they are not particularly shy about their actions in Cuba). Israeli soldiers can shoot palestinians on TV. Plan Columbia is funded by the US government which basically gives money to Contras to shoot trade union leaders (gross simplification I know but I am in a hurry and that is what it boils down to). But we will do whatever we deem necessary to go after someone who kills western civilians.

It has been said time and again on this forum by people on all sides of the debate that human life should be valued equally, not according to nationality. I was just trying to show with a specific example that that is not how it works in reality. That is how it should work, but we shouldn't fool ourselves by saying that it actually does provide the basis for foreign policy. And that is quite definately not anti American as it goes for a lot of other countries too (the UK springs to mind quite prominantly at this point...).

What I am trying to say is that this is not a War on Terrorism unless we go after ALL terrorists. That is never gonna happen so instead we will just continue being unfair to the majority of the world. Thanks for your thoughts guys BTW.