Views on death penalty

[Oblivion437]

I don't much enjoy travelling. I have several constant health problems that have plagued me for years, that prevent me from leaving where I am now.

My general point, the one I should have more carefully stated about Irish history was, the Irish STARTED getting pissed off due to the very straightforward problem of oppression and abuse by the English... There's a reason why so many still have a quiet loathing in their hearts, even if they won't publicly admit it.

I've put together the 'pro gun conspiracy' angle now, regarding Port Arthur.

Given the facts of the case showing a minimum of two shooters at one particular point, we have by definition a conspiracy. As you pointed out, most of the pro-gun elements in Australia exist well out on the fringe of society. Lacking the necessary political connections, they couldn't assure that the legislation got passed in their favor, and the exact opposite happened. So it went wrong for them. I still feel that even if this is the case, guilty men are walking free and an innocent (if somewhat unstable) man is in prison, serving time over a matterhe didn't commit, and wasn't properly convicted in, according to a grander, logical definition of conviction. By logical I mean, the evidence being argued out, witnesses called, testimonies gathered, jury deliberating, verdict delivered, judge delivering sentence. This didn't happen here, as fits Australian legal procedure, it didn't need to happen.

Also, for the record: What isn't staged theatrics on a talk show is either trumped up for the audience abroad through the camera, or otherwise so dull and meaningless as to not matter. Read up on it, it's quite a disturbing thing, to get a thrill from that. It's ugly as the concept of a snuff film being entertaining, but it's pervaded the mainstream with 'professional wrestling' examples of people knowing it's fake, but imagining a reality in it, and get their enjoyment from it.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: There's a reason why so many still have a quiet loathing in their hearts, even if they won't publicly admit it.

This just isn't true. I've been to Ireland on many occasions and they are an extremely friendly people - even to the English.

Our relationship with them is similar to the Canadian relationship with the US.

On what are you basing your opinion?

[Donut]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I don't know, but I have a vague suspicion that things are generally more tolerated on the European subcontinent that I would likely be ill at bearing witness to. To put the difference in a realm readily accessible, I'll use film. A movie like Salo: Or 120 Days of Sodom would NEVER be made in the US...

If I understand correctly you wouldn't visit Europe because we are more tolerant.

I've never heard of the film that you mentioned but checking on the internet I see that it is about:

"four decadents who kidnap dozens of young men and women and subject them to the most hideous forms of torture and perversion in an isolated villa. Rape, murder, and a coprophagic banquet decadents who kidnap dozens of young men and women and subject them to the most hideous forms of torture and perversion in an isolated villa. Rape, murder, and a coprophagic banquet"

Not my cup of tea.

Are you objecting to the film being made, or do you believe that if you visited Europe you would have to "bear witness" to this type of act as you walk along the road?

[Gab]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Now I'm intrigued. What is it that 400 million of us do; that you don't approve of?

Well, you abolished the Death Penalty, for one! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Oh, sorry, that was OnTopic. I apologize. [/QUOTE]I'd say that they were right to [img]tongue.gif[/img] . I don't think you'll ever get that the death penalty is just a revenge thing. Not to mention you're lowering yourself to the criminal's level.

[ 04-18-2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Gab ]

[Oblivion437]

Originally posted by Donut: On what are you basing your opinion?

The words of half a dozen Irish immigrants... They said as much to me. They ACT polite, but it's buried. It's down deep between the lizard brain and the primate brain, if you want to get technical... It's almost inborn, the way they described it... These were intelligent people, mind you, objective about their instincts...

As for what I used Salo for, it's an example of how far, and in what direction, the cultural extremes run to in Europe... Or at least Italy. Granted, it is, or was the absolute fringe, as the Italian government banned the film.

I'm saying, with a cluster of cultures that run that way, I'd be deeply uncomfortable in Europe. Just knowing something was under the surface, behind a thin veil. You don't even know you're wearing it until you take it off one day. I'm not about to condemn the lifestyles of Europeans (far be it that I preach a superior way of life or moral character) but I'm saying that I couldn't live like that, nor would I want to be around it.

And Gab, I'll concoct a scenario where the only sane, rational course of action would be to kill a person in question...

A man has been convicted of 26 murders, with 219 mountainous cases pending while he goes back to a super-maximum security prison, for the eleventh time. It can't be explained in court, it can't be shown how, but this man has managed to escape, and wreak havoc every time. If we send him back to prison, he'll inevitably break out again, kill more people, and cause more trouble. So far the man has done over half a billion dollars in property damage, and he'll do more if he escapes again. The only reason he was EVER caught, was because he turned himself in to taunt the legal system. They ship him to prison, he causes trouble again, turns himself in, goes to court, goes to prison. Rinse. Repeat. The only sane course of action is to kill this rat-bastard before he causes more trouble. No security detail has stopped him, no set of cell bars, padded walls or drugs can keep him down. The prosecuting attorneys have provided evidence to the effect that he may not even be human. That's irrelevant the case. The fact is he's unstoppable. To keep him alive is like burning nuclear waste or throwing matches into an old ship's powder magazine, something bad will happen sonner or later. At this point, one must realize, this person can't be allowed to live, and must die. This being the only variable that he didn't calculate. Now he's going to the chair. Supposing he dies there. That's the end of him.

This is a gross exaggeration. But there are examples of violent convicts who have escaped from so many prisons that they couldn't be made to serve their sentences. Frank Norris, one of the most famous of these, even escaped from the supposedly unescapable prison, Alcatraz. He was never seen nor heard from again.

There are examples of seriously violent offenders doing incredible damage in sprees and whatnot. Serial rapists for example. Why should the taxpayers suffer a burden because the state refuses to get rid of a societal cancer? It doesn't make sense to me.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Gab: I'd say that they were right to [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But surely you aren't taking away our right to disagree.

I don't think you'll ever get that the death penalty is just a revenge thing. Not to mention you're lowering yourself to the criminal's level.

I've explained before how the "lowering yourself to the criminal's level" is BS and shows poor reasoning. All of criminal punishment is based on doing things to the person that is not otherwise allowed by law. Taking away their freedom or fining them is equally "lowering ourselves to their level." Following this line of reasoning, no punishment is acceptable. I refer you to my earlier lessons on this issue. It does not logically pan out, and it is an attractive argument based on low semantics and little reasoning. But, regardless, some of us feel punishing for revenge is acceptable. It's our opinion, and our sovereign right to do so. BTW, and ontopic, I loved Kill Bill Volume 2 -- as did my prosecutor wife -- we highly recommend it.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: The words of half a dozen Irish immigrants... They said as much to me. They ACT polite, but it's buried. It's down deep between the lizard brain and the primate brain, if you want to get technical... It's almost inborn, the way they described it... These were intelligent people, mind you, objective about their instincts...

Lizard brain? Yes you are getting a bit too technical here! How can hatred be inborn? That's just nonsense!

The Irish in the US are quite different from the real Irish. As Yorick suggested, you need to go there to undersatnd.

Originally posted by Oblivion437: ....but I'm saying that I couldn't live like that, nor would I want to be around it.

Live like what? What is it that we are doing that you object to?

Can anyone else help me on this?

[ 04-19-2004, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Stratos]

Maybe he doesn't like the Eurovision Song Contest...

[Oblivion437]

Believe it or not, there are problems I have with life in this country as well. I think maybe I have an innate problem with my fellow human beings...

And Donut, I'd count Irish immigrants as 'real' Irishmen. Maybe you won't, but I will.

As for how *you* live, maybe it's an irrational thought process of mine, (infact, I know it is) but whenever I think of *Europe* I get the image of the newly recovered Eastern European nations. I don't really think of Western Europe in the process, so I have this horrible image of street-level abusive behavior and whatnot that won't get out. I could very well go to Europe, and see for myself, but that would require two things that I don't currently have:

1. Money for an airplane ticket
2. A way to get to an airport to make use of said ticket.

[Yorick]

Then, until you have those two things, you should hold off on generalisations, slurs and negative prejudicial statements until such a time as you can go there and see for yourself how wrong an incorrect your assertions have been.

And no, a person outside their country (an expatriate) is very different to one inside. Australians, Americans, Europeans all. The majority of Australians in London are generally drunkard partygoers, as most have just left university and are experiencing "the mother country". Australians in New York are generally highly driven professionals from the top of their field.

Australians at home are far less patriotic than either.

Americans in America are, to be general, far more amicable and likeable at home, than the loud rich obnoxious tourist stereotype, so often encountered overseas. Though this too, is an incorrect and horribly prejudical generalisation.