Monk ApR some advice would be nice

[Jim]

dmg: 1d20+6 = avg. 16.5

Well, considering I dislike playing monks and love playing the Kensai, I feel I need to say something(s) in favour of the monk:

I'm a little rusty, but AFAIK, when monks receive the kai strike (probably called something else in BG2 but that's its 3E name) that increases the enchantment of their fists, they actually receive this enchantment also in the form of a THAC0 and damage boost - which basically means that a level 15 monk will hit for 1D20+3.

Moving on to point number 2 - Faceman, you state the kensai will have 3.5 APR with Celestial Fury as a single weapon. Without the Grandmastery Patch (which I'm assuming you're assuming because you've stated grandmastery provides +3 damage), the Kensai's APR will be just 2.5.

Dundee - you're correct that a monk cannot have an 18/00 STR, but I guess there's nothing stopping him equipping the gauntlets of ogre power since these are only unusable by thieves and mages...

So, the kensai will still win in Facemans situation, due to the higher levels of HP, but the Monk is now actually dealing out more punishing damage per round.

[Jim]

Originally posted by Faceman: ...What points can we make for the monk. The Monk has one - admittedly cheesy - tactic available that can take out the Kensai: Run away - Hide in Shadows - Strike - Run away of course this is easily countered with the Kensai wearing boots of speed. The best way for the monk would probably be: Hide in Shadows - wait (to be sure that potion effects have run out) - Quivering Palm

Against Quivering Palm, the Kensai does need to pray that he makes his save vs death, but if we're playing a halfling or dwarven Kensai, the save vs death by level 15 will be rock bottom (well, very low anyway).

Regarding your hit and run tactic Faceman, this is all good and well, except, that if the AI script of the kensai is set to "standard attack" - his rock bottom speed factor will give him time to strike back at the monk before the monk has actually had time to move away after his assault.

[Jim]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I am suddenly tempted to support the "Berserkers eat Monks for breakfast" line of thought. [img]tongue.gif[/img] However, warriors tend to bore me, so I leave it to somebody else to work out the scenerio.

I am tempted to support this thought. Basically, the Berserker would be able to armour up to insane levels (helms, shields, full plate, protective rings and cloaks etc etc), then enrage to lower this AC even more, and due to the Monks merely acceptable THAC0, I think the Berserker would win from sheer tankness alone. The Berserker would tear through the Monks relatively poor AC, and the Monk would have a very difficult time continously successfully striking the Berserker...

[Faceman]

Okay,
taking back the Grandmastery Patch and adding the dmg bonus for the monk it's now
1d20+9 dmg = 18.5

and out finishing calcs are
110/24.675 = 4.4579 attacks = 1.78 rounds (4.46/2.5)
154/18.5 = 8.324 attacks = 2.38 rounds (8.32/3.5)
still a win for the Kensai

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Jim: quote: Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I am suddenly tempted to support the "Berserkers eat Monks for breakfast" line of thought. [img]tongue.gif[/img] However, warriors tend to bore me, so I leave it to somebody else to work out the scenerio.

I am tempted to support this thought. Basically, the Berserker would be able to armour up to insane levels (helms, shields, full plate, protective rings and cloaks etc etc), then enrage to lower this AC even more, and due to the Monks merely acceptable THAC0, I think the Berserker would win from sheer tankness alone. The Berserker would tear through the Monks relatively poor AC, and the Monk would have a very difficult time continously successfully striking the Berserker... [/QUOTE]Yes, they do!
Let's get our Berserkers AC down:
Armor of the Hart: -2 base
DEX bonus (18): -4
Ring of Gaxx: -2
Ring of Earth Control: -1
Helm of Balduran: -1
Cloak of the Sewers: -1
Sentinel: -5
DoE: -1
total: -17
with Rage: -19

I'm not sure what kind of damage fists do, but if it's blunt you could also use the according girdle for another -4 bonus.

If we let them face off at lvl15 our monk will have 6 base THAC0 boosted by
+3 enchantment: -3
STR 19: -3
Pale Green Ioun Stone: -1
Gauntlets of Crushing: -4
total: -5
so he will hit the berserker only 7 times out of 20

If we try it the other way round our monk gets his AC down to:
base AC at lvl15: 2
DEX bonus (18): -4
Cloak of Protection+2: -2
Ring of Gaxx: -2
Ring of Earth Control: -1
total: -7
(we could give him Wong Fei's Ioun Stone for another -1 but that would make him lose another hit and help nothing because of the Berserkers THAC0)

and our Berserker has a THAC0 of base 4 boosted by
DoE: -2
STR (19): -3
GoWE: -1
Grandmastery Flails: -3
Rage: -2
total: -7
which means that he can hit the monk the full 19 times out of 20

avg dmg/attack:

Berserker:
avg dmg: 1d6+2+7+2+2+2 (DoE+STR+GoWE+GM+Rage) = 18.5
(18*18.5+1*37)/20 = 18.5

Monk:
avg dmg: 1d20+3+7+4 (Fists+Enchantmen+STR+Gauntlets) = 25
(6*25+50)/20 = 10

avg dmg/round:

Berserker:
18.5*2.5 = 46.25

Monk:
10*3.5= 35

[Jim]

Nice work Faceman.

Originally posted by Faceman: ...I'm not sure what kind of damage fists do, but if it's blunt you could also use the according girdle for another -4 bonus.

Monks fists do crushing/bludgeoning damage, so the girdle of bluntness helps the Berserker out even more! (although, we may need to lower his STR slightly unless of course he has a natural STR of 19)

and our Berserker has a THAC0 of base 4 boosted by DoE: -2 STR (19): -3 GoWE: -1 Grandmastery Flails: -3 Rage: -2 total: -7 which means that he can hit the monk the full 19 times out of 20

Just a quick thought...I was under the impression that Monks gained the same THAC0 progression as warriors, so I would have thought that both a level 15 Berserker and level 15 Monk would have the same base THAC0 of 6.

The DoE is actually a +3 Flail that deals 1D6+4 damage and has +3 to hit (never trust a weapons description ), and we get a further -1 THAC0 from your list above from the Helm of Balduran. Finally, if we are using the unpatched GM, we only have a 2 point THAC0 bonus when using Flails rather than 3, so the resulting THAC0 should be -6 rather than 7. Close enough though [img]smile.gif[/img] .

avg dmg/attack: Berserker: avg dmg: 1d6+2+7+2+2+2 (DoE+STR+GoWE+GM+Rage) = 18.5 (18*18.5+1*37)/20 = 18.5

Tiny nitpick - the damage should be revised to:
1d6+4+7+2+3+2 (DoE+STR+GoWE+GM+Rage) = 21.5

Most of these tweaks however have just given the Monk an even harder time, so the conclusion still remains.

Rather than saying this class/kit can kick a Monks ass, it is worth noting that Monks still remain the most versitile of warriors, with some excellent resistances and immunities, and they can still dish out more damage per round than any other warrior bar the Kensai. They simply aren't the master of 1 v 1 combat (which we all know the Kensai is the king of).

[Faceman]

Thx for the corrections. In my experience the monks THAC0 progresses like the clerics (I think). Honestly to look it up I just create a lvl15 monk and check the character screen.
If the Berserker can use the Girdle of Bluntness for extra AC he doesn't even need to go raged for the same (actually for a better) outcome and if he does the monk can only hit him three times out of 20 leading to
(2*25+50)/20 = 5 dmg/attack
and
17.5 dmg/round

Again, what remains is that while not the king of one-on-one the monk's immunities and resistances make him a nice choice against many of the nasties you'll come across SoA.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Jim: quote: and our Berserker has a THAC0 of base 4 boosted by DoE: -2 STR (19): -3 GoWE: -1 Grandmastery Flails: -3 Rage: -2 total: -7 which means that he can hit the monk the full 19 times out of 20

Just a quick thought...I was under the impression that Monks gained the same THAC0 progression as warriors, so I would have thought that both a level 15 Berserker and level 15 Monk would have the same base THAC0 of 6.

The DoE is actually a +3 Flail that deals 1D6+4 damage and has +3 to hit (never trust a weapons description ), and we get a further -1 THAC0 from your list above from the Helm of Balduran. Finally, if we are using the unpatched GM, we only have a 2 point THAC0 bonus when using Flails rather than 3, so the resulting THAC0 should be -6 rather than 7. Close enough though [img]smile.gif[/img] .
[/QUOTE]revised:
Base: 4
DoE: -3
STR (19): -3
GoWE: -1
Grandmastery Flails: -2
Rage: -2
Helm of Balduran: -1
total: -8

So this is acutally even better however since the monk's AC is only -8 every THAC0 lower than (or equal to) -6 will give the same result [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-06-2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Faceman ]