Weimer Mod Upgrades

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: P.S. I did not mean to say Tactics is easy. I said the game is too easy without Tactics.

I agree completely with you on this point. When I first heard about the Weimer Mods, I had just started my second game of BGII. I noticed a thread about "Improved Illyich" and read how everybody was having such a hard time beating him and his cohorts. I popped in and said "What's the problem? Imoen took him and his whole gang out with one Stinking Cloud and one Fireball." Then I found out what they meant by "Improved" Illyich. I still remember that it took me an ENTIRE WEEKEND to beat him the first time I faced the group. Then I developed my "run, hide, and ambush" tactic that has worked so well - until now.

Guess I'll be spending many MORE hours trying to find a NEW tactic to defeat him and his crew this time around.

[SixOfSpades]

I just beat Imp. Ilyich version 20, but it took dozens of Reloads, and that was with a Dwarven Kensai with powergamed stats. I've written up a short walkthrough--I've avoided most details, because I abhor walkthroughs; I only wrote it to try to reduce the number of times other players have to Reload.

Cerek, you say the "Duergar Duo" kept appearing wherever you went? That sounds quite odd--in my game, they were NOT in groups of two (as claimed by the Tactics-README), or three (as claimed by the README-SixOfSpades), but four. Also, they did not usually appear right in front of me, but were placed at specific points (where the Shadow Thieves formerly spawned, or the 6-Goblin parties in the original game), and they were already placed at those points before any party member could get within their visual range. The only Duergar that "appear" are the ones that wake you up after you Rest (only to be expected when sleeping in enemy territory) and also that appear every 8 hours--personally, I really hate the way these appear right in front of you. It would be more realistic to have them appear in the Cambion Room and have them patrol the level randomly, or something of that nature.

As for fighting the Duergar at all, in my walkthrough I point out that if all one desires is to escape the dungeon, one only has to pass a single Duergar spawn point--which, in my game, contained only a sole Duergar Party Member. If one wishes to defeat Ilyich, of course, you'll have to take out more of them, as well as the Otyugh.

As for the issue of closing doors: Weimer said, "We'll make all the doors on level 1 stick open once opened and see what people think," and I replied with, "I think it's stupid and unrealistic--but it's a slight improvement over somebody forgetting about you because you've slammed a door in their face."
Personally, I am against the Cheesy Door Tricks used in Imp. Ilyich and Imp. TorGal. My rationale for the enemies' being unable to open the doors is based not on locks, but on using my own party members to hold the doors shut. For example, I should be able to lock Karamazov away in Rielev's room, because Minsc is more than strong enough to hold the door against her, especially after wedging it shut with an old sword blade or two. (The same rationale, however, would not apply with Imoen and the Jailkeep Golem.)
I agree with Weimer in that if closing the doors were allowed, a lot of players would use unrealistic tactics (like closing a door, not guarding it at all, and pretending that Zhivago isn't smart enough to open it), but I strongly disagree with not being able to close the doors at all.

Ilyich and his pals can still be isolated--at least the ones who use melee attacks (Ilyich, Golem, Rasputin, Glabrezu) can. But they're too difficult to isolate, now--in a couple of days I'll send Weimer my big, fat Email with all my suggested improvements.

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: Imp. Ilyich version 20,... I've written up a short walkthrough--I've avoided most details, because I abhor walkthroughs; I only wrote it to try to reduce the number of times other players have to Reload....in a couple of days I'll send Weimer my big, fat Email with all my suggested improvements.

Was this post your short walkthrough? Or has it been posted? Thanks.

[ 05-25-2004, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: Cerek, you say the "Duergar Duo" kept appearing wherever you went? That sounds quite odd--in my game, they were NOT in groups of two (as claimed by the Tactics-README), or three (as claimed by the README-SixOfSpades), but four. Also, they did not usually appear right in front of me, but were placed at specific points (where the Shadow Thieves formerly spawned, or the 6-Goblin parties in the original game), and they were already placed at those points before any party member could get within their visual range. The only Duergar that "appear" are the ones that wake you up after you Rest (only to be expected when sleeping in enemy territory) and also that appear every 8 hours--personally, I really hate the way these appear right in front of you. It would be more realistic to have them appear in the Cambion Room and have them patrol the level randomly, or something of that nature.

I guess it just seemed like they were "popping up everywhere". I cleared out the room with the Experiment Tubes and then killed the Duergar Duo that showed up when I got done. Then, as I was going over to the Sewer Golem's room, I saw the stats for the NEXT group of Duergar pop up on the screen. Now, these two did NOT appear right in front of me or attack right away. Instead, they did - as you point out - appear in the hallways above Rielev's room where the thief or the hobgoblins normally would be. It just fooled me when their stats suddenly popped up on the screen, but that's what I meant earlier when I said you don't necessarily have to fight them the moment they show up. I did go ahead and kill them, but now I'm going after the Otyugh in the Sewer Room

Originally posted by Six of Spades: As for fighting the Duergar at all, in my walkthrough I point out that if all one desires is to escape the dungeon, one only has to pass a single Duergar spawn point--which, in my game, contained only a sole Duergar Party Member. If one wishes to defeat Ilyich, of course, you'll have to take out more of them, as well as the Otyugh.

It didn't take too long to find a successful tactic against the Duergar. I simply move a character far enough ahead for the Proletariat (fighter) to see them, then turn and run. The mage will try to cast Confusion, but I usually get out of his line of sight before he finishes. I then lead the fighter to an open area (right now, I'm using the room where you meet the genie that gives your PC the hypothetical test question. I line up my 3 free characters at the top of the room with missile weapons and then use the "bait person" to just run back and forth in front of them. The duergar fighter will continue chasing the "bait person" while being continually strafed by the rest of the party. Then, by the time he is dead, all of the duergar mage's pre-cast spells are down. So I go back and hit him with a Stinking Cloud, then fill him full of arrows and crossbow bolts too. That usually prevents him from summoning that nasty spider he likes so well.

And I've only encountered more than two of the Duergar one time so far. That was with the encounter above Rielev's room. I lured the fighter away and dispatched him, alone to find another fighter waiting next to the mage when I returned. Other than that, I've only encountered two at a time (along with their war dogs, of course).

Originally posted by Six of Spades: As for the issue of closing doors: Weimer said, "We'll make all the doors on level 1 stick open once opened and see what people think," and I replied with, "I think it's stupid and unrealistic--but it's a slight improvement over somebody forgetting about you because you've slammed a door in their face." Personally, I am against the Cheesy Door Tricks used in Imp. Ilyich and Imp. TorGal. My rationale for the enemies' being unable to open the doors is based not on locks, but on using my own party members to hold the doors shut. For example, I should be able to lock Karamazov away in Rielev's room, because Minsc is more than strong enough to hold the door against her, especially after wedging it shut with an old sword blade or two. (The same rationale, however, would not apply with Imoen and the Jailkeep Golem.) I agree with Weimer in that if closing the doors were allowed, a lot of players would use unrealistic tactics (like closing a door, not guarding it at all, and pretending that Zhivago isn't smart enough to open it), but I strongly disagree with not being able to close the doors at all.

That sounds reasonable to me.

Originally posted by Six of Spades: Ilyich and his pals can still be isolated--at least the ones who use melee attacks (Ilyich, Golem, Rasputin, Glabrezu) can. But they're too difficult to isolate, now--in a couple of days I'll send Weimer my big, fat Email with all my suggested improvements.

It's very cool that you can email Weimer directly with your suggestions for his Mod. I would also like to see your walkthrough vs Ilyich 20. If you had that much problem with a powergamer dwarven kensai, I'm not sure how much luck I'll have with my Jester. But since Imrahil explained how to Add to his Innate Abilities, I'm planning to go back into Shadowkeeper and see if I can change some of his other abilities.

I think it is kind of silly that every Bhaal-Spawn has the exact same innate abilities, regardless of class or alignment. Seems like each would have different Innates that matched their abilities and personality a little better.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I would also like to see your walkthrough vs Ilyich 20.

Now that I think about it, I don't think there's much of importance in the my walkthrough that I haven't already stated here. My points are basically:

• Fighting the Duergar isn't really worth it for the items, so the only reason for doing so is to get Imoen up to Level 9.
• It's quite possible to escape the dungeon after doing next-to-nothing in the way of actual combat. You need to kill: A Smoke Mephit, a few Lightning Mephits, a non-spellcasting Ogre-Mage, the Mephit in the room with the Sewage Golem, the Goblins in the hallway between the Otyugh Room and Jon's Bedroom, the four Mephit Portals (the only unavoidable fight of any difficulty), an Assassin, two more Mephits, one spawn-point of Duergar, two more Duergar, and the three Thieves near the exit.
• Don't attempt to Tank the Proles, just dance them around. Be wary with the Party Members, though, and don't try to fight 2 of them at once.
• Ilyich and his boys need to be drawn as far away from their patrol pattern as possible (all the way down into the Prison Cells room) before you fight them, to maximize the amount of time you have before their friends show up.

I think it is kind of silly that every Bhaal-Spawn has the exact same innate abilities, regardless of class or alignment. Seems like each would have different Innates that matched their abilities and personality a little better.

Um....the PC's innate Bhaalspawn abilities are dependent on Alignment. Good alignments get the abilities from the "good" dreams in BG1, Evil alignments get the abilities from the "evil" dreams, and Neutral characters get a mix of the two. I even powergamed my Kensai's alignment: Neutral Evil. The Vampiric Touch and Larloch's were great for disrupting Zhivago, and the Horror was surprisingly effective at breaking up the groups of Duergar.

[Leslie]

If anyone is interested I can also get some walkthrough for a no reloads dance with Ilyich friends. And yes, that is with version 20.

But it is written for a multi mage/thief specifically designed for Ilyich and a no reloads game through SOA. (and hopefully further)

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I think it is kind of silly that every Bhaal-Spawn has the exact same innate abilities, regardless of class or alignment. Seems like each would have different Innates that matched their abilities and personality a little better.

Um....the PC's innate Bhaalspawn abilities are dependent on Alignment. Good alignments get the abilities from the "good" dreams in BG1, Evil alignments get the abilities from the "evil" dreams, and Neutral characters get a mix of the two. I even powergamed my Kensai's alignment: Neutral Evil. The Vampiric Touch and Larloch's were great for disrupting Zhivago, and the Horror was surprisingly effective at breaking up the groups of Duergar. [/QUOTE]Ooooops!!! [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Well that just goes to show how often I actually use them. Almost never.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: I just beat Imp. Ilyich version 20, but it took dozens of Reloads, and that was with a Dwarven Kensai with powergamed stats. I've written up a short walkthrough--I've avoided most details, because I abhor walkthroughs; I only wrote it to try to reduce the number of times other players have to Reload. * * * Ilyich and his pals can still be isolated--at least the ones who use melee attacks (Ilyich, Golem, Rasputin, Glabrezu) can. But they're too difficult to isolate, now--in a couple of days I'll send Weimer my big, fat Email with all my suggested improvements.

WOOHOOOOOO!!! I just beat Improved Ilyich 20 also!!!!! And I actually managed to do it with the Jester kit. He didn't have power stats, but I did add the Poison Weapon ability and gave him a magical katana (Malakar +2) from Shadowkeeper. I only used the Poison Weapon on Rasputin and his katana wasn't nearly as effective as Minsc and Jaheira with their weapons.

Here's how I beat them....{SPOILER WARNING}
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
I entered the library from the Sewer Room. I was just looking for the Duergar Duo that was supposed to be in there, I had no idea that Ilyich and his crew now patrol through the library instead of patiently waiting in the kitchen for me.

Once I discovered that they were patrolling the library, I placed Imoen, Jaheira and Minsc back in the Sewer Room and sent my Jester into the library just to the end of the long hallway. I found that if I waited long enough, one or more of the group would eventually come around the corner. I found that Ilyich, Rasputin, and the Jailkeeper Golem were the ONLY ones that would actually chase me all the way back to the Sewer Room. Of course, at this point, I didn't have many weapons that would actually hurt the Golem. When he chased me, I would send Imoen, Jaheira, and Minsc back down the hallway to the room where we found all of our equipment at the beginning of the game. Meanwhile, I would run down the hallway to the left (through the hallway the Sewer Golem uses to open the door). Once I got to the end of that hallway, the Golem would give up the chase and return to the library (as long as the other 3 party members were far enough down THEIR hall for him to not see them).

By running back and forth, I was able to "choose" which opponents I attacked first. My entire strategy centered around my Jesters "charming personality". All the battles with the Duergar had allowed him to Level Up, so I had 2 3rd level spells. I chose Dire Charm in both slots. I also had Imoen copy a scroll of Dire Charm into her spellbook and memorize a 3rd copy of the spell. Previous battles have shown that Ilyich and Karamazov are susceptible to Dire Charm, so my strategy was simply to Charm either one of them and have them attack their colleagues. It really works best if you can get Ilyich first, since he has two good weapons that Jaheira and Minsc can use on the Golem and the Glabrezu.

It took several tries (probably 20+ reloads), but I finally managed to Charm Ilyich. Rasputin and Karamazov were there also, so I had Ilyich attack Rasputin (since I have never been able to Charm him). Then I retreated my Jester back to the Sewer Room until the fight was over. I waited a few minutes to see if Rasputin or Karamazov would come down the hallway after me, but they didn't. So I snuck back up the hallway and grabbed Ilyich's gear, then went back and distributed among the party. Then I made another trip up the hallway and waited for the next person to show up.

The Jailkeep Golem came next and I lured him back to the Sewer Room. Now that Jaheira had a +3 club and Minsc had a +2 hammer, I sent Imoen in with her +1 Quarterstaff while I used my Magic Missiles. The Golem went down quickly.

Rasputin was next and I lured him into the same trap. He was Near Death when Zhivago and Karamazov both suddenly showed up at the doorway. I got very lucky and managed to Charm Karamazov also. I made him switch to his +2 shortsword (so I would have as many +3 bolts for myself as possible) and had him attack Zhivago. That prevented the cleric from summoning his deva OR casting that nasty Fire Storm spell. Joker and Imoen pelted him with Melf's Acid Arrows and their remaining Magic Missiles. In the meantime, Jaheira and Minsc managed to hack Rasputin to pieces. Then we just "dog piled" on Zhivago and killed him. After that, we stood around and waited for the Charm to wear off Karamozov. Since he was still equipped with the short sword (rather than that nasty crossbow), he was very easy to beat down (which is good, because Joker and Imoen were both out of spells by this time). That just left the Glabrezu and he was no problem.

[Leslie]

Don't forget that you can pick Yoshimo before the Ilyich fight. His traps and backstab can make the difference.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Leslie: Don't forget that you can pick Yoshimo before the Ilyich fight. His traps and backstab can make the difference.

I've done that before and I seriously considered it this time too. But my characters wouldn't know there was a Bounty Hunter just waiting to join them on Level 2, so I couldn't really justify going through the portal to get Yoshimo and then bring him back.