Why innocent?

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Kaz: Okay, here, maybe. But in Afghanistan? Please tell me how they are supposed to inform themselves? Their press is biased, most of them are impoverished, starving, homeless and exploited. How are they supposed to find *relalatively* neutral information on what's going on (completely neutral information is pretty impossible)? And - what about the children? Of COURSE they wouldn't inform themselves, even if they could, they're kids! Does anyone expect them to go and read newspapers - if they could read? If there were neutral newspapers? Don't they count as innocent civilians? Sorry for the tone of this post, I'll go cool down now *takes a nice, long, COLD shower* BTW, Dreamer, I think I agree with you. We'll all blow each other to oblivion and take the rest of the planet with us sometime ("we" being humanity in general, I mean look at our history), but it's not necessarily because of religion. Religion has been used as an excuse, that's all.

I find it funny that you mentionned that the press was biased, I don't recall seing any news segment on American TV (since that's all I watch) mentionning that Bin Ladden was a good guy or that Bush was a bad guy... or even that America's foreign policy over the last 50 years had anything to do with it. For the children, you are rigth, they are the only "innocents" in all this mess.

Anyway, I'm not using twisted logic when I say that we are all terrorist, of course to us, are actions are perfectly rational, motivated, calculated and excusable. Why else would we do it? The problem is that people fail to see that on the other side of the fense, those actions that we consider rational, motivated, calculated and excusable are not considered as venerable as we would like them to be.

To paraphrase Skywalker (Mark), "to you, he's a terrorist but to someone else, he's a freedom fighter". So, in essence, because you are a freedom fighter doesn't mean that you'll be considered as such by others. That's why I said that we are all terrorists.

You're partly right when you say that religion doesn't have anything to do with it. The reality of it is that it's a matter of self-interest. Sometime, that interest is brandished under the form of religion, virtue, economic, politic. But the bottom line is people only fight to protect what is in their perceived best interest.

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[John D Harris]

On this Amreica is the or a terrorist in it actions. Does any see the differance in an attack and a counter-attack? One is an action the other is a reaction.
As for the innocents, THERE ARE NO INNOCENTS IN A COMBAT ZONE, that is why war is so terrible. War must not be entered into lightly but when it is entered into it must be waged with such ferocity and brutality that it is over quickly. With either you, or your enemy, dead or surindered.

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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by John D Harris: On this Amreica is the or a terrorist in it actions. Does any see the differance in an attack and a counter-attack? One is an action the other is a reaction. As for the innocents, THERE ARE NO INNOCENTS IN A COMBAT ZONE, that is why war is so terrible. War must not be entered into lightly but when it is entered into it must be waged with such ferocity and brutality that it is over quickly. With either you, or your enemy, dead or surindered.

John, I'm not sure who you wanted to reply to but I'll answer you anyway.

First, a clarification on my part. I have no problem with the USA actually bombing Afghanistan and with "colateral damage". That's in Western Civilization interest to do so. You're right in war, there are no innocents (I've made that point in the past).

My problem resides with the fact that for every ounce of colateral damage we inflict, we are helping the terrorist cause by potentially helping them boost anti-Western Civilization sentiments and recruiting more people.

If I have to chose which of the two interest is more important to the security of our civilization, I definatly think that dealing with future potential terrorist is more important than simply a totalitarian government in place on the other side of the world who happens to support terrorists. Even if we remove the Talibans, terrorists can still work. If we remove the terrorist and leave the Talibans in place, we've taken care of our problem.

So, out of the 2, the focus should be to go after the terrorist and not the Talibans. Going after the Talibans actually (IMO) goes to the detriment of our bigger national interest. So why do it? The true ennemy here, tho they support Bin Ladden, is not the Talibans, it's Bin Ladden and the other terrorists of his network!

Any way, there's no difference between action and reaction... they're both actions!

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[John D Harris]

Ryanamur,
I wasn't addressing anyone in particular.
Result-wise there may be little diff. in an action and a reaction, but intent-wise there is a world of differance. (I'll illustrate my point) Lets say that you and I are rivals in life we argue philosphy, we compete economicly, we even attempt to undermind each other's romances, our friends even hate each other and have come to blows, we show total contempt for each other. Then one day while walking down the street, I come out of nowhere and punch you in the nose, I have crossed the line. Now consider that for awhile I have struck you and you have not retaliated in kind. Then one day you decide to strike back in kind After I have struck you. Nowhere in civilized society (side note where does the "i" before "e" except after "c" rule come onto effect in English?) would you're punch back be concidered the same as my original punch. mine was an attack (action) your's a counter attack (reaction). D


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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: Any way, there's no difference between action and reaction... they're both actions!

While probably true, I think what he was referring to can more appropriately be defined in this way.

Formally stated, Newton's third law is:

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Translated from Physics into our current situation:

"Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."

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"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)



[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-21-2001).]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: While probably true, I think what he was referring to can more appropriately be defined in this way. Formally stated, Newton's third law is: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Translated from Physics into our current situation: "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."

HERE HERE!!!!



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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by mitsos: Dreamer128, I don't believe that religion, in its true form, I mean Christianity, has brought any death. It's the way people manipulate and twist its truths that has caused so much pain and trouble. The fact is that when people are born, the only taint in them is the sin of Adam and Eve. It's however the influence of society, the greed, the hatred that perverts and changes and alters their way of living, their conception of the relationships between other people etc.

I dont agree that when people are born there is any taint in them whatsoever! Please explain what you mean by the sin of Adam and Eve. Questioning what you're told? Not doing as you are told? That can be a very positive trait, if you ask me. Nations of obedient robots are just what we don't want, surely!!



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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[tracey]

i object to the idea that religion's only true form is christianity????????

hello?????

can we have some kind of thought process around that statement?

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offended mistress of the illuminati

[tracey]

i object to the idea that religion's only true form is christianity????????

hello?????

can we have some kind of thought process around that statement?

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offended mistress of the illuminati

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by tracey: i object to the idea that religion's only true form is christianity???????? hello????? can we have some kind of thought process around that statement?

Religion is "the service and worship of God or the supernatural" according to Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary (a great online tool).

"Religion is as religion does" (a rough translation from Forrest Gump's mama)

Christians (me included) believe their beliefs are the true beliefs.

Muslim's believe their beliefs are the true beliefs.

Hindo's, etc...,et al.

We all understand that others have other beliefs. But we each also believe our own is the only "correct" religious belief.

I'm not saying, you have to change your beliefs to mine, nor do I want you to try and change my beliefs to yours.

I hope this answered(in some small way) your question.

Peace
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"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)



[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-21-2001).]