Barack Obama

[John D Harris]

Prit, get over it BUSH won Florida, each and EVERY legitimate NEWS SERVICE that went down to Florida after the election and COUNTED THE VOTES, the VERY votes you claim were not counted. No matter how they counted the votes ie: only the votes in the diputed counties or recounted the entire State of Florida. Reached the same conclusion Bush won Florida. EVEN THE NY TIMES SAID SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now you might be able to find a party-zan news service that throught their own jade onesided look at the votes might have reached another conclusion. But since there is so much complaining about party-zan ringwing press the same logic must be used and deny the leftwing Party-zan press. Oh but I forgot the same rules don't apply to the leftwing press. I challenge you to show where a single reputable news service reached a differant conclusion. I also challenge you to, after you can't find one to change you point of view in the face of the true facts.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I couldn't help but notice he spoke of how his grandfather worked for what they wanted to have and acheived in order to make life better for his children. Not how the Gov't welfare made it possble for his grandfather to succed. Where are the examples of welfare/gov't handout recieptants succeding?

To succeed (whatever that is) and become rich, you need to either inherit a fortune, win on the lottery or work hard to achieve it. This, on the other hand, is completely unrelated to whether you have a welfare state or not. Welfare aid is meant to help people get back on their feet if they've fallen, and is not a means to become rich and successful in itself. You're comparing apples and oranges there.

Granted, there are people who seem to be completely OK by living on goverment handouts and not make an effort to raise up, but those will never become rich and successful if they stick with that idea, and they're economically dependant on someone who might not always feel like giving away money. Not a wise decision, in other words.

[Timber Loftis]

Examples of Government handout folks succeeding:
Condi Rice (poor black family origin, IIRC)
Clarence Thomas (minority scholarship).

However, I don't think anyone in the party was touting government handouts. The party has moved away from handouts, and continuing to characterize it that way ignores reality (but not republican rhetoric). I note that the only significant welfare cutbacks in recent history came during the last Democratic administration, and was an issue of great concern for that president, who hammered on Congress long and hard to come up with sensible rules to force people to get off the dole.

But, spin it how you will. Your president is the one who rolled back those welfare reforms to make up for the fact he couldn't get us employed within the timeframe limitations.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Examples of Government handout folks succeeding: Condi Rice (poor black family origin, IIRC) Clarence Thomas (minority scholarship). However, I don't think anyone in the party was touting government handouts. The party has moved away from handouts, and continuing to characterize it that way ignores reality (but not republican rhetoric). I note that the only significant welfare cutbacks in recent history came during the last Democratic administration, and was an issue of great concern for that president, who hammered on Congress long and hard to come up with sensible rules to force people to get off the dole. But, spin it how you will. Your president is the one who rolled back those welfare reforms to make up for the fact he couldn't get us employed within the timeframe limitations.

I'm glad to see you've still got that "Top" and are spining it wildly just be careful when it starts to wind down. The last Dem. administartion was dragged kicking and screaming into welfare reform. Seconds after signing the bill into law they started crying about how they needed to makes CHANGES to the LAW that was just signed. He also campaigned in 96 on how he was going to makes the changes, but alas he did not, as per the last 40+ years of the dems running the show in Congress, and anybody that has a clue KNOWS Congress has the real power No/Nada/Zero/Zip can be done with out Congress at giving approval, or at the very least not opposing.(US civic's 101 Congress can OVERRIDE a Presidental veto!!!!!! Please in all of the legal book learn'n show me where the President has a simular ability? You can't! You know you can't. ) If you have any doubts about the last dem. president campaigning to set right the welfare reforms passed by the REPUBLICAN House and Senate check out some history. T.L. you're a professional Lawyer but believe me when I tell you that you wouldn't want to defend that position against me in front of a judge, I don't know legal crap but I'd wax you, a jury maybe cause there are lots of our "peers" that can't find their ass with both hands. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Condy and Judge Thomas both succeded because they worked hard, Condy has what 3 or 4 advanced degrees? they sure as "Hale" weren't handed to her because she was poor. She earned them because she worked her rear-end off. Same for Judge Thomas he worked his rear-end off.


EDIT *a little nugget* check out the evil Contract with America that propeled the Republicans into power in the House. Why I believe you'll see something in it about Welfare reform, Who introduced the bill into Congress, was it the Last dem. administration? Why no it was the evil Republicans that had to be hammered into welfare reform.
Damn T.L. if I've tole you once I've told you a thoudsand times about pitching me these softball pitches. At least you could try for a "bean" ball and give me the base, instead of these slow pitches and me knocking them out of the park & rounding the bases. A "bean" ball doesn't have the same effect on your ERA. as a grandslam.

[ 07-30-2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Timber Loftis]

The fact someone works hard doesn't mean they didn't benefit from government handouts. The formula is SUPPOSED to be:

(minimal government assistance, as needed) + (lots of hard work) = success

Any person who succeeded due to "handouts" would likely fit this model. Condi does. One notable exception is Uncle Clarence Thomas, a lazy student who cruised by on a C average at Harvard and philandered his way through his career until landing in a cushy lifetime job, only to turn on those very programs he benefitted from. So, your recollection of his hard work is dead wrong.

So is your recollection of welfare reform. And, presidents may not have the power to override a veto, but they do strongly sway their party, and they do get to propose laws -- they are part of the congressional process. Let's not ignore reality.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: One notable exception is Uncle Clarence Thomas, a lazy student who cruised by on a C average at Harvard

Graduating from Harvard, even on a C average is still quite an accomplishment, especially compared to the likes of Al Gore, whose father bought him a trip to a couple of Ivy League schools where he dropped/flunked out.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: So is your recollection of welfare reform. And, presidents may not have the power to override a veto, but they do strongly sway their party, and they do get to propose laws -- they are part of the congressional process. Let's not ignore reality.

They also have to power to mandate Executive Orders, which circumvent (at least temporarily) the legislative branch.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: Graduating from Harvard, even on a C average is still quite an accomplishment, especially compared to the likes of Al Gore, whose father bought him a trip to a couple of Ivy League schools where he dropped/flunked out.

You don't understand. I know an admittedly-lazy student at Harvard who spent one whole semester doing plays off campus and avoiding work whose lowest grade was a C. Harvard Law grades on an A- curve, and no one flunks. About the absolute worst you can do, if you just show up for a final exam, is a C or C-. I'm sure what you said made sense to you based on how normal school grade curves work, but I think you'll see things in a different light with this added piece of information. The jaded among us believe that Harvard considers even its worst students to be better than the rest of us, so it doesn't flunk hardly anybody. This issue has gotten a lot of press in recent years.

And, my school graded on a B- curve, which I often have to explain to people in interviews because so many schools grade on a high curve. It's quite often that I have to explain this and then point out that they should look at my class rank to confirm it.

[Timber Loftis]

Still waiting to hear from Moirainne, but I do note the French national vacation period doesn't end for most people until Aug. 20th, so maybe she's having fun in the sun in the meantime.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: The fact someone works hard doesn't mean they didn't benefit from government handouts. The formula is SUPPOSED to be: (minimal government assistance, as needed) + (lots of hard work) = success Any person who succeeded due to "handouts" would likely fit this model. Condi does. One notable exception is Uncle Clarence Thomas, a lazy student who cruised by on a C average at Harvard and philandered his way through his career until landing in a cushy lifetime job, only to turn on those very programs he benefitted from. So, your recollection of his hard work is dead wrong. So is your recollection of welfare reform. And, presidents may not have the power to override a veto, but they do strongly sway their party, and they do get to propose laws -- they are part of the congressional process. Let's not ignore reality.

No arguement about Helping people out via gov't/private individuals etc. Eveybody needs help in some way I've yet to see a baby born that can function without help. You've yet to show me an example of sucess without hard work, I shall wait with baited breath

I'm not ignoring reality, yes the President of the USA is part of the Congressional process(civics 101 or scholastic rock if you're old enough "I'm just a bill, sitting here on Capital Hill" Harris breaks into song ) in MOST cases he is the final authority, the reality is vetos are hard to override, but hard is not imposssible. As Sherlock says "once you illeminate the impossible, what you have left NO matter how improbable(sp?) is the solution." (Paraphased by me) Now T.L. I couldn't help but notice you have not answered who propossed the act formally known as Welfare reform, Nor did you address wiether or not it was in the "Contract with America" created by that most evil of humans Newt [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit: What about President Cliton's campaign of '96 where he said he would make changes to the welfare reform act but didn't? IIRC he even went so far as to on at least one occasion state he shouldn't have signed the welfare reform act. Now if that is true how can one even thunk about giving him crebit for the act?

"Those who remain silent are said to consent."(I forgot the Latin for the phrase, guess I better watch "Reguarding Henry" again)

[ 08-06-2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]