Wine bashing !

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Davros: Please to note Ronn that I failed to use the word offensive [img]smile.gif[/img] . You didn't use the word, but I thought you were just being subtitle. The most negativity in my post was reserved only for the "scathing quotes" (read anti-French jokes) that people would not be saying if they weren't angry. My remark was regarding this quote, "the message that their point of view is sending to the world is that no nation has the right to stand up and say 'I object' to the US anymore. They will crucify you if you dare try it. That sort of carrying on is what really disappoints me." I guess we're both disappointed. My disappointment comes from the fact that you feel American protestors are trying to send this message, or that you think they should find some other way of protesting that won't "offend" anyone. Apparently, Americans can't even protest correctly. I never argued against the right of peaceful protest, yet several responses have taken me to task as if that were a point that I had made [img]smile.gif[/img] . You didn't speak out against peaceful protests in general, but you did seem to speak quite clearly regarding your thoughts on this particular method of protest and what you and the world think of it. Looks like I got plenty of response, but many of them seem to have missed the key words in my post : "predominantly" right wing - and nothing posted has convinced me of different "as yet" for the weight of evidence remains on that side. Since I'm predominantly right wing, I won't argue the point. "odd extremes" - and in my view, crushing bread and wine with an Armoured vehicle rates as an oddity, and as for extreme, crushing with the AV seems to me to be a case of "termination with extreme prejudice [img]smile.gif[/img] In case anyone missed it. This was done for an "over the top" radio show. It was done as a publicity stunt, so of course it was an odd extreme, and yes it was in poor taste. [img]tongue.gif[/img] "disappointing" - yes, I think this whole anti-French thing is disappointing - did 2 months ago - still do today Well, I was completely with you on the rude French remarks being hurtful and inappropriate, but I guess as far as the wine protests, we'll just have to part ways. I hope you won't be upset with me for saying what I felt I had to say, but it wouldn't be honest of me to pretend I don't complete disagree with most of what you've said or alluded to.

[Timber Loftis]

Nope. Didn't see that coming. Not at all.

Luvian, not to get on the list with Ronn, but is "race" tied to skin color, nationality, or ethnicity? Be careful how far you let the definition of this horrible horrible, inacurrate, should-never-have-been-invented word go, for you'll find yourself including religion. And, there can be no doubt that religion is perhaps similar to but certainly distinct from race.

[edit:] As a footnote, how would you put your "rule" into effect. I can see the law now:

It shall be illegal for one to destroy chattel or other personal property, including all sundries and food items, in protest against a nation from which such chattel or other personal property originates, claims to originate, references, or otherwise represents. This law shall not apply to chattel or other personal property that is properly consumed in the fashion stated on the label, by which it is normally used or consumed, or by which it is generally understood to be used or consumed.

Perhaps this is why there generally are not laws dictating what you can do with your own personal property.

BTW, in this country the above law would be stricken in a HEARTBEAT because it has an ILLEGAL PURPOSE - to wit LIMITING FREE SPEECH.

Just so you know Luvian, racial slurs are NOT illegal - you can use them all you want so long as you are not: (a) the government, (b) an employer, or (c) engaging in a hate crime. Now, you certainly use them at your own risk, but we DO NOT legislate that everyone like everyone else.

[ 03-03-2003, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Nope. Didn't see that coming. Not at all. Luvian, not to get on the list with Ronn, but is "race" tied to skin color, nationality, or ethnicity? Be careful how far you let the definition of this horrible horrible, inacurrate, should-never-have-been-invented word go, for you'll find yourself including religion. And, there can be no doubt that religion is perhaps similar to but certainly distinct from race. [edit:] As a footnote, how would you put your "rule" into effect. I can see the law now: Quote: It shall be illegal for one to destroy chattel or other personal property, including all sundries and food items, in protest against a nation from which such chattel or other personal property originates, claims to originate, references, or otherwise represents. This law shall not apply to chattel or other personal property that is properly consumed in the fashion stated on the label, by which it is normally used or consumed, or by which it is generally understood to be used or consumed.

Perhaps this is why there generally are not laws dictating what you can do with your own personal property.

BTW, in this country the above law would be stricken in a HEARTBEAT because it has an ILLEGAL PURPOSE - to wit LIMITING FREE SPEECH.

Just so you know Luvian, racial slurs are NOT illegal - you can use them all you want so long as you are not: (a) the government, (b) an employer, or (c) engaging in a hate crime. Now, you certainly use them at your own risk, but we DO NOT legislate that everyone like everyone else.[/QUOTE][img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] That's a funny law, I wouldn't be suprised if it could actually happen.

I only used the word racism to make my point because english is only my secondary language, and that was the closest word I knew to what I was trying to say.

Also, I was not talking from a legal point of view, but from a moral one. To me, there is only one race, the human race. And I hate it when I see people hurt each other over such labels as "skin color", "nationality" or "religion",...

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Luvian: First of all, don't try to turn this into a nationality debate. I never ever mentioned the US, my post was not at all about that. Luvian, you said burning flags was understandable to you. You said pouring out wine was not because it could hurt the farmer. What I'm telling you is that burning the flag will hurt some people, too. Take the US part out of the flag statement I made if you want, but it doesn't change anything, so what about the fact that IT DOES HURT someone you don't know? Second, I never said burning a flag "is ok". I consider it very offensive and never should be done. Don't put words in my mouth. I wasn't trying to. Maybe you weren't trying to relay the things you said the way in which I read them, but it was the way I read them. And what is racism? Here's a quote from Dictionary.com: Quote: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So what's the diference between a black and a white, or a German and a Chinese? both could be considered "races". So, being biased to french people is the same as being biased to black, in my opinion. Both things are very wrong.

Luvian, being German or Chinese or French is a person's nationality, not their race, but I thought you didn't want to talk about nationalities.

Refusing access to French people would be wrong, but no one is suggesting doing that. People are pouring out wine to protest something they disagree with, they aren't peeing on the French Embassy gate. They are pouring out wine, they aren't spitting on someone's mother.

They are entitled to their protest just like everyone else, no matter who likes it.

You said you could understand the burning of a flag(maybe you don't agree with it, but you can understand it), but that pouring out wine could hurt someone you didn't even know... I explained to you that burning a flag could hurt someone, too.

As for your insults, I am going to show this posts to other mods, and ask them what should be done about it.

Please do, and point out that those remarks were made earlier in this thread regarding the Americans protesting, but that nothing was done or said until someone applied those things to you.

Also show them the part about your racism comment because I poured out a bottle of French wine today, so that means you, an Ironwork's Moderator, have publically accusing me of being a racist. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: People are pouring out wine to protest something they disagree with, they aren't peeing on the French Embassy gate.

[img]graemlins/evilhaha.gif[/img] I peed on the embassy gates once. In Geneva. I don't really know which embassy it was, but the guy with the camos and the assault rifle noticed and came after me. Good thing I was piss drunk enough to run faster than normal.

Other than that, I merely note that I am
waiting.......
waiting.......

[Ronn_Bman]

Luvian, I didn't realize English wasn't your first language.

The words "pathetic" and the phrase "bordering on stupidity" in the post that upset you were used specifically because they had been used in other posts to refer to the American wine protest. I wasn't really saying those things about you, I was saying them to make a point that those things were rude. That's why they were in italics.

On the racism comment, I have to completely disagree with you no matter how you intended it. I come from the South, and that isn't a word that is thrown around lightly. Beyond the misunderstanding of the word racism and all it entails, I still hope to be perfectly clear about the fact that I think you are wrong.

I'm up for any punitive action that may be coming my way, but I don't think I've said anything inappropriate. Maybe some things were rude, but there is apparently a sliding scale for the acceptability of rudeness here, and I don't have a slide...

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Other than that, I merely note that I am waiting....... waiting.......

Are you waiting to see me off Timber? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: On the racism comment, I have to completely disagree with you no matter how you intended it. I come from the South, and that isn't a word that is thrown around lightly. Beyond the misunderstanding of the word racism and all it entails, I still hope to be perfectly clear about the fact that I think you are wrong.

What exactly do you mean by that, exactly?

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Luvian: What exactly do you mean by that, exactly?

I don't think racism is a reasonable comparison, and I think you are wrong about your complaints against the wine protest. I think it's unfair to complain that those who protest are somehow abusing people. [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT - I replaced the word good with reasonable in the first sentance.

[ 03-03-2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

So uhhhh Women going Nude to protest war is sophisticated and refined, pouring one of the primary exports of a country who is being objectionable in your view is pathetic.....well I have to say, Im more likely to watch the former and actually do the later.....

American and French antipathy goes back quite a ways and has little to do with the current crop of debates. Current American sentiments toward France are not all that different from 10 years ago, they are just more vocal and better publicized. I suspect it is much the same with French Sentiments about America.

I think the boycots of all things french are as legitimate a form of protest as any. As for hurting the farmers and not france, well you hurt both. That is sort of the whole point behind the protest...to show your displeasure by making a significant and impacting gesture....the farmers are hurt and the French trade balances are hurt if you boycot a french product.

You can't call this protest pathetic without admitting all protests are pathetic. My [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]