White House says Pagans don't have loving hearts and don't care for the poor

[Chewbacca]

The original topic of this thread seems to be lost to an off topic "my religion is better at charity/more persecuted than yours" discussion.

So from here on out, I'm just going to ignore posts that try to steer the topic in that direction and continue to discuss the challenges and the successes Pagans today in America are facing in gaining both acceptance as well as understanding.

The good news is it is not all bad news and significant steps forwards have been made. I maybe discussing some of these victories as well!

Ignorant people in positions of power and influence can reverse this momentmum by making disparaging remarks that imply Pagans are nothing but an oddball fringe group, and that we don't care for the poor. When the President of the United States tries to reduce the rights to worship for our Wiccan soldiers and his handpicked leader of the faith-based intiative makes disparaging remarks, we have a clear sign that work is still to be done to insure the Witchtrials and the Burning times never happen again.

My sincerest sympathy, thoughts, and prayers goes out to people of all faiths, paths, and philosophies who suffer from religious/philosophical intolerance and persecution. We are indeed all in this same boat together.

[Mouse]

I've said it before and I'll say it again here. This forum is for discussion not arguement.

The difference is that in a discussion the participants exchange views and opinions with the aim of widening a general understanding of a topic. Not everyone has to agree and nobody needs to concede or recant a previously held position.

An arguement, on the other hand is a situation where mutually exclusive viewpoints are proposed and defended with the express goal of forcing one position into ascendancy over all others.

Inevitably, when exchanges become heated, the lines blur, but if anyone thinks that this forum is here so they can browbeat, harangue or belittle others in pursuit of their personal agendas, then they are going to be sadly disappointed.

If that's what you are looking for, find another forum, or better still, get a soapbox and head for the nearest street corner.

[Yorick]

OMG!!!!! This qualifies as one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. Congratulations. Yeah, if your the one doing the persecuting, it sure does. Ask the Pagans of old Europe, ask the Native Americans how strong the have become due to being persecuted andbeings forced to give up their language, their home, and of course their religion. I feel sick.

Chewbacca, I find this attitude most bizarre. You are stating an account of someone's personal experience is "one of the most ridiculous statements you've heard?"

Are you calling me a liar?

I'm sorry but it's true. Perhaps I should have been more accurate and said: Persecution, suffering and hardship have strengthened ME. I used the word "us" inclusively, as in all followers of Jesus. If you are indeed following his words, that is a promise we can rest assured on. In my experience, the promise has held true.

Whatever persecution has done to other faiths and cultures is not relevent to my experience. I cannot comment on the inner strength Amerindians did or did not gain because I have no experience of suffering while following Amerindian theology.

You can ridicule my personal experience all you like. Water off a ducks back I'm afraid. I am the one who has grown as a result of the negative experiences in my life. I would not change a single one. There is nothing - not even the darkest paths I have walked down - that I would change.

===============================

As far as "Pagans of old Europe" my heritage is Celtic. As you're probably aware the Druids and Bards were prominent social forces in Celtic society. I identify with the Bardic traditions of my people, but put that musical expression of faith into my Christianity rather than the paganism of my ancestors.

I am well aware of the RACIAL persecution my people have been on the receiving end of. Whether at the hands of the Pagan Romans, Pagan Germans, or Pagan Vikings, the Celtic's probably lost more territory in Europe than any other people other than the Basques.

Interestingly, the Vikings only stopped their incessant raids after the message of salvation through Christ reached Scandinavia.

Anyhow, I've said enough. My experience is that the promises of the Bible hold true, and that suffering, persecution and harassment have only strengthened me. You can see the truth in matters physical. Muscles grow through resistance. Through being put under pressure.

So too spiritual muscles. Emotional muscles. Character. Perseverance. Patience. Necessary ingredients for success.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I know it has to be very difficult to face that type of ignorance on a daily basis Chewbacca, but I also know there are others who face the very real possibility of being killed for their beliefs on a daily basis. Just something to consider.

Well said.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: We went to the psychic with the Good News that Jesus Christ is Lord and that, yes even a witch can be set free from the bondage of sin and death!

Of course this is not the first time in recent history police have taken sides with the intolerant Witch-haters. More to come... [/QUOTE]Yeah sounds like hatred to me... NOT. Given their worldviews it's an act of compassion and love. Whether it's appreciated or appropriate is another story. But hatred it most certainly is NOT.

[Chewbacca]

Here is case from earlier this year where not only was a Pagan harrassed but the school was virtually sanctioning church events occuring on school time, public school time.
Notice the harrassment recieved from the principal and the bus driver(whoops alleged bus driver incident and other instances of violence is from another article found here) concerning the young ladies religion (or rather seeming lack of a particular religion), not to mention the violence suffered at the hands of other students.


Note-the bolden emphasis is mine.
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Feb/02222...rday/31807.asp

A 14-year-old girl and her siblings endured years of harassment for their pagan beliefs before their parents sued the Union County school system, alleging their civil rights were violated, the family says. The family of India Tracy, 14, spoke about their ordeal Sunday at a religious freedom discussion at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville. "The last straw was when India was chased down the hallway by three boys who grabbed her by the back of the neck and told her she should change her religion or they'd change it for her," India's mother, Sarajane Tracy, told a crowd of more than 120 people. The event was sponsored by the Rationalists of East Tennessee, the National Conference of Community and Justice, the East Tennessee Interfaith Alliance and the Task Force Against Religious Coercion. The Tracys filed a federal lawsuit in February, alleging school officials promoted and endorsed religious activities, denied her right to freely exercise her religion and failed to protect her from physical and verbal abuse. India Tracy left Maynardville's Horace Maynard Middle School in 2002 to be home-schooled. School officials have declined to talk about the lawsuit. The Tracys describe their religion as paganism, their attorney Margaret Held said. According to the Pagan Federation, paganism is an ancient religious tradition that embraces kinship with nature, positive morality and acknowledges both the female and male side of Deity. India Tracy said she tried to explain her beliefs once to her classmates but gave up. "What we are isn't on TV; it's totally different," she said. "Nobody listened. They just said I was wrong, that we were wrong, and that we were going to go to hell." India Tracy was sent to the principal's office after she declined to portray the virgin Mary in a Christmas play and again after her parents refused to allow her to attend a two-hour, fundamental Christian service held during school hours. Tyla Tracy, her oldest sister and a student at Union County High School, said she was forced to do extra class work for not attending the same revival. The Tracys initially wanted to collect only attorneys' fees and make the school system correct the problems, but now they want to use any settlement to pay for private school tuition for India. "We're going to send her to the absolute finest school that money can buy," Held said.

[ 12-07-2003, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Now this is more along the lines of what I consider to be persecution. I think it is horrible that these two girls (especially India) had to suffer such an extended period and harsh amount of harassment over their religious beliefs. I do wonder why the parents left their girls in the school system for 3 years before finally deciding to remove them from the situation and the constant harassment, but maybe they were trying to do what they could to change the system while their girls were still in the school and finally reached the point where they realized that nothing was going to change.

The only two incidents I saw in the articles that I did not feel were outright harassment was the "bus driver incident" and the extra homework they older sister had to do for not attending the assembly.

I'm sorry, Chewbacca, but I simply don't see that the bus driver inviting India to church counts as harassment. It may have gotten annoying, but it isn't like the driver was trying to force her to attend church and the article didn't say anything along the lines of the bus drive saying India would burn in Hell if she didn't attend church. Of all the examples listed, it seems to me that the bus driver was the ONLY person taking an appropriate "Christian approach". She didn't try to force her beliefs on India, or make make India recant her beliefs..she simply extended an invitation for India to come to her church.

As for the extra homework assigned to the older sister, I believe that is pretty standard procedure for ANY student that refuses to attend a mandatory high school assembly. Now, I agree that the school was WRONG to make a religious assembly mandatory (that is about as clear a violation of separation of church and state as you can find in a public school)...but the fact that extra homework was assigned for skipping a mandatory assembly is pretty much standard fare.

As for the family's lawsuit, I have to agree (for once) with their lawyer. I admire the fact that the family originally just wanted to recoup their attorney fees and have the school policy changed. It seems obvious that the $300,000.00 in punitive damages was the lawyers' idea...but given the degree of harassment (including physical threats and violence), I think that it is justified in this case.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I hope you will forgive me, Chewbacca, but now that I responded to the incident you listed above, I really feel I need to address some comments you made regarding my earlier posts.

When I listed examples of Christians being persecuted, you said that you "honostly didn't see the point of my post". You said that you had never denied that other groups suffered persecution too (although I personally haven't seen you list any accounts of other groups being persecuted) and you said that my listing accounts of Christian persecution was "distasteful" and "trivialized the topic" of your thread. Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on that one I guess.

So what WAS the point of my previous posts? I suppose it was a somewhat "defensiive" reaction on my part to the tone of some of your earlier posts. I have mentioned in the past that you seem to have deep resentment towards Christianity in general and that it doesn't take much "scratching" to bring this undertone of resentment to the surface. I also know that you disagree with this assessment, but as I said before, your own words refute your denial.

Case in point. On the first page of this thread, Yorick and I both suggested that - instead of just being "righteously indignant" over Towey's remarks - you harness that passion and find a way to him wrong. This was your response to that.....

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I have every right to be angry. Pagans haves suffered Centuries of persecution by Christians. Some of us are not going to hide anymore, We are not gonna lie down and take it. We are going to get mad and speak out against prejudice and ignorance. If you don't like it, Too bad.

NOT ONCE did I suggest that you didn't have a right to be angry, that you should "lie down and take it", or that you should just stay in hiding. Yorick did suggest you grow a "thicker skin", because he didn't feel the remarks were particularly hateful (ignorant, yes, but not hateful). But he still didn't say for you not to "speak out against prejudice". He just suggested that you find a more productive way to do it.

Then, when he listed both historical and personal examples of Christians also suffering persecution, you basically said that we had no right to list example of OTHER groups being persecuted, and should focus only on the persecution and harassment suffered by pagans - unless we wanted to start our own separate thread about Christian persecution throughout the years. That's when I stepped in and offered MODERN DAY examples of Christian missionaries being KILLED for expressing and practicing their beliefs. As horrific as the example is that you listed above, the Tracy family still wasn't faced with the possibility of being killed for their beliefs.

So now you have responded that is both "disgusting" and "distasteful" to respond to a post about persecution of Group A by offering counter-examples of persecution of Group B. In other words, this has basically been declared a "Pagan Persecution ONLY" thread, and dissenting opinions or counter-examples should not be allowed (or should at least be ignored if they do occur).

If that's what you want, I'm happy to comply. NOBODY has denied that persecution of pagans occurs. Nobody denied that Towey was ignorant (and more than a little prejudiced) to make the statements he did, yet you still feel the need to list documented examples of persecution to prove that it exists....and the only reason I can see seems to be because Yorick and I had the audacity and unmitigated gall to actually offer examples of our own brethren facing persecution for their beliefs as well.

So I will just bow out of this discussion now and you can list some more examples that prove what most of us have already agreed to. I don't see that it will really promote much of a discussion or exhange of ideas, but if it makes you feel good, then it will have been worth it.

[Chewbacca]

When exactly did this thread become about all the original posters alleged feelings and motives rather than the original topic? Why do certain people keep trying to divert and diminish the topic away from harrassment and persecution of Pagans and focus it more on the alleged motives and feelings of the original poster? Why?

It is sad. I thought perhaps I could share the word of some potential 'dirty' business going down in Government, I thought maybe that I could vent some feelings and find some support. I'm not the only Pagan who frequents Ironworks, I thought I could share the word with like minded folk as well. I thought maybe a discussion of the faults and merits of the Faith Based Intitiative could be discussed.

But alas, my audacity to point out that Pagans are still being harssed and disparaged by government and by some Christians is met with sublte personal attacks, preaching, and accusations that I hate Christians.

Imagine a poster asking that his thread stay on topic! How ludicris!

Fine if ya'll want to discuss the persecution and harrassment of Christians...go right ahead I won't object anymore.

Fine if Ya'll want to nitpick my posts and dimish the topic I started, go right ahead, I won't object anymore.

Fine, if ya'll want to talk about how much Chewy hates Christains and that is the only reason why he even started this topic, fine. I won't object anymore.

Fine if you want to tell me to grow a thicker skin, great.

Fine if you want to discuss how great Christianity is. Go ahead.

Discuss whatever you want in this thread. Have fun, enjoy.

Bye.

[Chewbacca]

This is an activist site that addresses the problem of persecuted Christians around the world.

http://www.persecution.org/


edit here is an article from that site concerning the Christian persecution in America:

The 'offensiveness' of Christianity David Limbaugh It amazes me that people can still, with a straight face, deny that Christians are the subjects of systematic discrimination in this country. Every time I turn around there's more evidence. Since my book "Persecution" was released I've seen enough additional examples to give me a good start on a sequel -- not that I've decided to write one at this point. But I continue to encounter liberals who pooh pooh the idea that it is even possible to discriminate against a majority group. No matter how much proof you show them, they wave their hands dismissively and say, "those are just loony examples of kooks out there that certainly aren't representative of any widespread discrimination." Well, if that's the case, why do we keep seeing these cases in the news? Of course, it's not the case. There is an intrinsic bias in our popular culture against Christianity, and it's getting worse. The only thing that isn't clear to me is whether the liberal secularists who deny it are oblivious to the discrimination or are being deceitful. I actually think there is some of both. Remember, there are numerous aspects to this phenomenon. It's not just the scrubbing away of Christian symbols and expression from the public square, including public property, public schools, universities, efforts to muzzle Christian officials, the anti-Christian litmus test applicable to presidential appointees and anti-Christian discrimination in zoning regulations. No, it's not just about "separation of church and state," because the bias has now infected the private sector as well -- such as dress codes prohibiting the wearing of Christian jewelry, and the anti-Christian bias among the liberal media, Hollywood, and the cultural elite -- including their profane, anti-Christian art. Besides, if it were a matter of separating church and state, secularists wouldn't be twisting the government's arm to endorse anti-Christian values, from "comprehensive" sex education to pornography to homosexuality to New Ageism to Secular Humanism to the values of other major religions. And let's just dispense with this lie that the secularists are motivated by a desire to promote religious freedom and tolerance. Their constant barrages against Christian religious freedom and Christianity itself dispel that myth outright. Just one day this week I ran across three more examples -- and I wasn't even looking. The first involves the Meriden Public Library in Meriden, Conn., which banned five paintings of Jesus Christ, not because they were blasphemous or disrespectful, and not even because of ludicrously exaggerated concerns over church/state interaction. The images were disallowed under a policy that prohibits "inappropriate" and "offensive" fare. That's right: Jesus is offensive. Library officials were concerned that children might be disturbed by these images. What kind of mindset is it that sees offensiveness in portraits of the One who embodies pure love, and wholly ignores the egregious intolerance of those who want to ban them? You can't simply brush this off as a silly little incident. It represents an increasingly common attitude in the culture that Christianity, on its face, is offensive. That's a completely different proposition from saying that government shouldn't endorse religion. In the second example, the Supreme Court is about to hear a case concerning Northwest College in Kirkland, Wash., denying student Joshua Davey a $3,000 scholarship because he wanted to use it for the study of divinity. Thankfully the Bush administration is not infected with the anti-Christian virus. U.S. Solicitor General Ted Olson pointed out that the denial of the scholarship shows a government bias against religion (the Christian religion). This isn't an isolated example. I document a similar case in my book, involving Michael Nash, whose academic scholarship was originally denied by Cumberland College in Williamsburg, Ky., when he declared that he would be majoring in philosophy and religion. The third example involves Islamic indoctrination in California public schools -- a subject also addressed in my book. Seventh-grade history students at Royal Oak Intermediate School in Covina, Calif., didn't just learn about Islam. They practiced the religion, by fasting to celebrate the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. The school clearly endorsed the religion: The teacher enticed students to participate by offering extra credit. It's one thing for Christians to argue that they should rejoice in their persecution -- that's even biblical. But it's an entirely different matter for us to stand by idly as our culture, of which we are supposed to be the majority component, institutionalizes the notion that our Savior is anathema. When is enough going to be enough? When are complacent Christians going to fight back?

[ 12-08-2003, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]