Give me your poor, your huddled masses...and I'll lock em up indefinitely

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: One of the consistent themes I noticed in most criticisms is that the member doing the complaining didn't have any better alternative to offer. At least you did offer an alternative to the current condition the lady in question is in. I applaud you for that.

I sure hope this isn't direct towards me (again) because I thought it was a lame argument before when Magik used it and I think it is a lame argument now as well.

So what if someone doesn't offer a specific alternative to a policy or action they disagree with, why does it matter?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: One of the consistent themes I noticed in most criticisms is that the member doing the complaining didn't have any better alternative to offer. At least you did offer an alternative to the current condition the lady in question is in. I applaud you for that.

I sure hope this isn't direct towards me (again) because I thought it was a lame argument before when Magik used it and I think it is a lame argument now as well.

So what if someone doesn't offer a specific alternative to a policy or action they disagree with, why does it matter? [/QUOTE]It wasn't directed at ANY member in particular, Chewbacca. That's why I said it was generally directed at all the criticisms and complaints of some of the measures that had been taken.

But I disagree with the viewpoint that it is a lame argument. To me, it is just as lame to go around complaining all the time without offering any alternatives. Why? Because just complaining about a problem doesn't make the problem go away...nor does it do anything productive towards solving the problem.

I'm not saying you have to have all the answers, but if you don't like the way something is being done, then why not share how you would like it to be done. Otherwise, it sounds like your complaining merely for the sake of complaining.

[Chewbacca]

I do provide alternatives as well as ask pertainent questions.

I think it offers ***nothing*** to discussion to whine about people not offering alternatives. Nada.

In fact I think it is just one of many tactics used to avoid debating the actual merits of a topic or to avoid facing the actual critisms.

I also assume it was aimed at me, since I am "the member doing the complaining..."

This also fits a running pattern of critisizing the poster (whether named or generally anomynous) rather than adressing the topics at hand.

Besides... Ever hear of a rant?

Ever hear of blowing off steam?

Ever hear of declaring and defining a problem before coming up with solutions?

Ever hear of discussing the topic rather than people having the discussion?

Can we get back on topic now?

[skywalker]

I suppose if something was inherently wrong, no complaints about it might give the impression that everything is just fine.

Don't worry Chewbacca, I've been told many times that if I don't have a solution, I should just quit whining and shut up.

Mark

[EDIT] Typos...what else?

[ 02-02-2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: skywalker ]

[Timber Loftis]

I agree with Cerek. Identifying a problem with something is easy. Once someone has produced an idea/argument/system/procedure it's waaaaay easier to poke holes in it than it is to best it. While we recognize problems that exist in any particular thing, if we don't have a solution we should take care not to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

[Chewbacca]

I, for one, am going to proudly complain, critisize, rant, and rave (with in the rules of course) to my little heart's content and if I don't offer alternatives, then too bad.

I encourage everyone to complain, critisize, rant, and rave as they see fit. If something bugs you- get it off your chest. Don't be stopped or fooled by the false impression that your words or perspective are any less just because critisize you for only critisizing.

Just remember we are supposed to follow the rules and respect the other posters here at IW and you may wanna consider this before critisizing fellow forum members, either in person or generally.

Of course I am guilty for critisizing Cerek for critisizing members for only offering critism and not solutions. I see no way around this paradox at the moment so I guess I will have to let it lie...

Unless of course some one wants to critisize me for critisizing Cerek for critisizing forum members for critisizing and not offering solutions but me thinks that would be what is called a viscious cycle and somethings are better just let go..eh? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I, for one, am going to proudly complain, critisize, rant, and rave (with in the rules of course) to my little heart's content and if I don't offer alternatives, then too bad. I encourage everyone to complain, critisize, rant, and rave as they see fit. If something bugs you- get it off your chest. Don't be stopped or fooled by the false impression that your words or perspective are any less just because critisize you for only critisizing. Just remember we are supposed to follow the rules and respect the other posters here at IW and you may wanna consider this before critisizing fellow forum members, either in person or generally. Of course I am guilty for critisizing Cerek for critisizing members for only offering critism and not solutions. I see no way around this paradox at the moment so I guess I will have to let it lie... Unless of course some one wants to critisize me for critisizing Cerek for critisizing forum members for critisizing and not offering solutions but me thinks that would be what is called a viscious cycle and somethings are better just let go..eh? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Stop being so critical!

[img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I do provide alternatives as well as ask pertainent questions. I think it offers ***nothing*** to discussion to whine about people not offering alternatives. Nada. In fact I think it is just one of many tactics used to avoid debating the actual merits of a topic or to avoid facing the actual critisms.

Yes, there are many tactics available that members can use to avoid debating the merits of a topic or facing criticism of the same. However, since my first post in this thread addressed as many of the salient points that had been presented up to that point, it doesn't apply here.

I started off on topic and directed my response to some points made by Paladin. Then his response made me realize that it looked as if I were "picking on him", so I clarified my position and admitted that at least part of my response had been a somewhat "generalized rant".

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I also assume it was aimed at me, since I am "the member doing the complaining..."

Well Chewbacca, I can't stop you from feeling the comments are directed at you if that's what you want to do. I have told you that my comments were not directed towards you personally and you should know me well enough to know that is true. If I had an issue with comments you had made, I would have quoted those comments and made my counterpoints. But to be honost, I had no idea where you got the idea this was a personal attack on you. Then, when you said "you were the one doing the complaining", I realized that you must have been the one started this thread and that was why you felt I was directing my comments at you. I'm sorry, but I have been browsing several threads - and to be honost - I thought Rokenn was the member that started this thread.

I do apologize if you felt my comments were directed at you personally. I assure you they were not.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: This also fits a running pattern of critisizing the poster (whether named or generally anomynous) rather than adressing the topics at hand. Besides... Ever hear of a rant? Ever hear of blowing off steam? Ever hear of declaring and defining a problem before coming up with solutions? Ever hear of discussing the topic rather than people having the discussion?

To be honost, Chewbacca, I've done a bit of all this before. I've had my rants and blown off steam before. And I have made comments regarding a the tone of a posters comments - including yours - when I felt it was appropriate. I sense there is still some anger over that. I apologize again if you are upset at comments I have made in the past.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Can we get back on topic now?

I'm ready when you are.

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I agree with Cerek. Identifying a problem with something is easy. Once someone has produced an idea/argument/system/procedure it's waaaaay easier to poke holes in it than it is to best it. While we recognize problems that exist in any particular thing, if we don't have a solution we should take care not to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

I disagree!! If no one were to complain than it obviously would not be important enough for people to put there minds together to address the problem and nothing would every get solved because there would not be an identified problem. People don't usually like complaints because that might actually have to get off there fat bottoms and come up with an alternative solution to an existing problem.

So Complain people, let the Bush administration hear your problems especially ones they are currently creating!!!!

A problem must first be addressed before it can ever be solved. The easiest thing to do is keep quite hoping someone else will address the problem so you don't have to take any heat from the powers that be.


[ 02-02-2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I'm sorry, but I have been browsing several threads - and to be honost - I thought Rokenn was the member that started this thread.

If I had been the thread starter I'm sure this thread would have been closed with no comment already [img]tongue.gif[/img]