subsistence Societies

[Dirty Meg]

By gad!! I agree with you, John D Harris!! (Except for the purple butt remark, which I think is crass). I don't like it anymore than you do John, but there it is.

[Djinn Raffo]

I'm going to smoke some horse to get around.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dirty Meg: To say that it is proven that owning a car is more expensive is idiotic.

Do the math for expenses over a year, and get back to me. Budget for repairs, insurance plus initial cost, fuel, tolls and parking. A carspace at home is a percentage of the rent/mortgage. Compare it to yearly public transport costs. If you are right, so be it, but people more dedicated to this subject than I have widely researched it and found it to be so.

It may be cheaper for the average person but not for everybody. The initial cost of a car is more expensive but it is cheaper to travel. Whether the cheaper cost of travel is worth the initial expense depends on how much you drive. If you drive a lot a car will be cheaper.

If you drive a lot, repairs are more frequent. No way around it. Cars have the ILLUSION of being cheaper, but it is not so. Do a budget and get back to me. You may be right for your own case, granted, but the word for the majority is as I have said.

Not all the problems I pointed out are particular to the British public transport system. Some places do not have a sufficent population to justify trains or buses all night and every minute. Some places do not even have a sufficent population to justify a train station or bus stop.

Granted, but London has 10 million odd people. Not having an all night underground is archaic and backward.

As to the points which do refer particularly to British public transport, what do you suggest we do about them? Better security would mean increased fares. To dismiss the problem because it is particular to one country is fascile.

Better security could be a change in the countrys policing policy. Giuliani cleaned up New york by arresting people who avoided fares, and in the process caught a lot of muggers and rapists already wanted.

Better security is a fiscal management issue, not necessarily an increase in income.

I have been conned by London thieves before, yet have never had anything happen on the New York subway - which is also cheaper and more regular.

[Yorick]

Trams - light rail - are the way to go if you ask me. Better than putting rail underground, and better than busses, due to the removal from traffic.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Not Owning a car maybe cheaper in a major city, but outside the major cities there is no way in the nine planes of hell that is true. There is more to the price of something then just money, or have you not heard TIME is MONEY. Guess what most people don't live in major cities. So you want to screw them because you want your cities car free? Well spank my butt and paint it purple. You people going to have Public Trans go everywhere I want to go when I want to go there? I'm not going to wait around for public trans, to come by and take me some place close to where I want to go. I'm going to be able to go where and when I want. Now if'n you people want to sit around and wait for the bus/subway be my guest GO FOR IT! that's no sweat off my rear-end where, how long, or why you wait that's a price you pay not me.

The suburbs John. Without the car, the suburbs simply would not exist. It's a chicken and egg scenario. You need a car, because America has been built on the car. Without the car you have villages in the country, surrounded by properties, as per the english countryside or French. Cultures existed without the car for thousands of years. How can you not see this?

1.America grows on the back of the automobile
2.American way of life becomes dependent on the automobile.

Can't you see this? You can't fathom you life without a car because YES!!! it is unfeasible for you John Harris, to exist in your society without one.

They key is a long term cultural shift over generations, not individuals like you suddenly ditching their car.

Governments need to plan for the long term, not just for the next four years.

[John D Harris]

No Yorick, I have existed without a car and very will may have to do so again, I own my car it does not own me. I DO NOT want to live with out a car, and it's going to take a whole bunch of people armed to the teeth and my death for them to get my car.

Suburbs, Suburbs!!!!!! Yorick agian you speak as a city folk, there are more then suburbs in this country. I have to drive 60+ miles next week to take my wife to see the Doctor, not because we live in the suburb of Birmingham, Alabama, but BECAUSE we live in a WHOLE differant town 60+ miles away. Now you want me to take a taxi to the bus staion from my house $10, a greyhound bus for $30 each, plus a taxi $15 one way from the bus station to the Doctor then another $15 back to the bus station, the bus back to Northport, and another $10 for a taxi. That's $110 plus the extra time I lose from work waiting on my rear-end for the greyhound bus to leave at IT'S scheduled time. or $15 for gas leave when I need to and get back when I want too. Same is true for when ever we go to another town for what ever reason we so desire!!!!!

Anyone is welcome to take my beat up GMC but they had best pack their lunch they'll going to be here awhile.

Now I've hear you talk about having a car and the cost, well if you take a taxi it MOST certianly will cost you more the taxi is a business and they have to make money so add all the cost of car ownership plus the cost of driver's wage, and profit for the taxi owner. And you can get back to me with those numbers

[ 08-14-2004, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Dirty Meg: By gad!! I agree with you, John D Harris!! (Except for the purple butt remark, which I think is crass). I don't like it anymore than you do John, but there it is.

Sorry DM I am the nicest kindest most polite hard case SOB you'll ever meet,'sides I'm not the crustest of the OLD COOTS for noth'n.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: No Yorick, I have existed without a car and very will may have to do so again, I own my car it does not own me. I DO NOT want to live with out a car, and it's going to take a whole bunch of people armed to the teeth and my death for them to get my car. Suburbs, Suburbs!!!!!! Yorick agian you speak as a city folk, there are more then suburbs in this country. I have to drive 60+ miles next week to take my wife to see the Doctor, not because we live in the suburb of Birmingham, Alabama, but BECAUSE we live in a WHOLE differant town 60+ miles away. Now you want me to take a taxi to the bus staion from my house $10, a greyhound bus for $30 each, plus a taxi $15 one way from the bus station to the Doctor then another $15 back to the bus station, the bus back to Northport, and another $10 for a taxi. That's $110 plus the extra time I lose from work waiting on my rear-end for the greyhound bus to leave at IT'S scheduled time. or $15 for gas leave when I need to and get back when I want too. Same is true for when ever we go to another town for what ever reason we so desire!!!!! Anyone is welcome to take my beat up GMC but they had best pack their lunch they'll going to be here awhile. Now I've hear you talk about having a car and the cost, well if you take a taxi it MOST certianly will cost you more the taxi is a business and they have to make money so add all the cost of car ownership plus the cost of driver's wage, and profit for the taxi owner. And you can get back to me with those numbers

1.America grows on the back of the automobile
2.American way of life becomes dependent on the automobile.

[Magness]

Yorick, from what I'm reading here, you seem to be some lover of urban life. It that's your cup of tea, you're welcome to it. But I, for one, wouldn't live in a big city to save my life. I despise big cities with a burning passion. They're nothing but hellholes.

I live in the suburbs in New Hampshire. Technically, I do live in the largest city in NH (Manchester), but it is nothing compared to Boston, NYC, or LA. I live on the Manchester's outskirts and it is a very "suburban" environment.

I like living where there are more trees and grass than pavement and concrete and glass towers. Cities are nothing more than soulless constructs of glass and steel and concrete. Give me the wide open spaces any day.

Also, I want nothing to do with a lifestyle where my movements are dependent on the schedules of mass transportation. When I want to go the mall, I'll go when *I* want to do so, not when the next bus comes by. When I want to head over to the golf course to play a round, I want to go on my schedule. When I leave work, I want the option to go where I want on a whim, not stuck to some subway schedule.

A car gives you that freedom. Living in a land and a life of subways and buses sounds like a vision of a living hell on earth to me. Maybe it is more expensive to have a car. I'll pay it. It is the cost of freedom.

[Dirty Meg]

Originally posted by Yorick: 1.America grows on the back of the automobile 2.American way of life becomes dependent on the automobile.

Life in rural England would be impossible without a car. There are too many small towns and villages which are not big enough to support a train station or a decent bus service. Are you also suggesting that the English countryside grew on the back of the automobile?

Using public transport for all your transportation needs is only possible if you live in a big city. Most people don't.

[ 08-15-2004, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Dirty Meg ]