International insults.

[Ladyzekke]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Cloudy and Lady Zekke, whoa there for a sec. I am somewhat baffled by your respective posts above. What animosity? Certainly none was intended by my post above, nor do I see any in Ramon's post to which you were referring. Perhaps you could use a break from the forum for awhile Cloudy, I think you are reading way too much into what Ramon was trying to say. Certainly I needed a break from the forum recently, I took it, and now I am back with a fresh perspective and a wonderfully wholesome attitude Yes, there is no need for animosity on the forum, but the other side of that coin is that people are sometimes being overly sensitive and defensive and reading things into posts which were not meant. We can disagree without being disagreeable St. Diogenes Of Pumpkintown [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-21-2001).]

Dio, the animosity I have seen has been on several different threads here, and I am not going to point to any one of these specifically, for obvious reasons. Btw, I was not meaning your posts on this thread. I guess you may think that I am overreacting, or seeing things that are not there, that is your perspective. I guess it could work both ways, maybe I see things that are not there, or maybe it IS there, and YOU are not seeing it. In the eye of the beholder I suppose. Only the one who posts knows truly what they meant, and I think if they clarified that if someone appears insulted by their comments, it would make things a lot better. Many do not, they merely continue along the same lines, and that is where things end up escalating in the long run.

As for Ramon's post in reply to me, I have no problem with his post as a whole, and only replied back to him on one paragraph, which was personally directed at me, and I clarified what I was trying to get across. The rest of his post is his thoughts and opinions, which I have no problem with.

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[Sazerac]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Ok, I will cease to make myself heard here. It pains me, but I must leave Ironworks for a while. I am starting to take it all very personally and feel hurt, attacked and in some cases just plain hated for being what I am. While I'm hoping this is just because I'm tired and misreading, I see people are over-the-top and being aggressive for the sake of the attack- to PROVE their points at my expense or someone else's. Cloudy

Well, you guys have finally done it. You've managed to run Cloudy off, now. We've lost Mark, we've lost Melusine, we ALMOST lost Moiraine, and now Cloudy.

I hope every single last one of you is PROUD of yourselves.

I may be the next to go.



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[Prime2U]

Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon: No, dearest Wendy, I am afraid those are not the rules by which this game can be played ! Because you have just declared all - or at least most - of what I think that needs to be discussed as "off-limits". And in return you grant me the right to something I neither need nor want (and for what I never needed your permission if I ever wanted to indulge in it): to make patriotic statements about my own country. The issue that is bothering me and many other Europeans is not just American patriotism, but the virtue and dangers of patriotism in general. So, obviously, telling me to just be happy with and freely express my own patriotic feelings is not a solution for our disagreement that could ever satisfy me. As to religion: do you really not realize how predominant religious references, symbols and religiously charged myths are in the American political culture ? I will give you an example: in the debates on crime - both here and in the American public - I find it always amazing - and disturbing - how quickly absolute moral categories like "good" and "evil" are used when discussing an entirely secular political issue. You would never ever hear that from anybody in any other (western) country I have the slightest bit of knowledge of - and if so the person using them would be looked upon as having just completely disqualified him/-herself for being very unreasonable and dangerously extremist. So, how can you then possibly expect me to consider religious beliefs and convictions to be something entirely personal and private ? (Btw, I have no problems doing that here because Germany, like all Western European countries, is a so highly secularized society that religion is indeed (almost) irrevalent in the political arena). So, we don't keep coming back to the topics of patriotism and religion because we are the maliciously anti-religious, anti-American and even racist pack that Hugh enjoys to portray us as, but rather because some particularities of the American society make it inevitable in our opinion to discuss them: what many Americans fail to see is how extremely unique the prominent roles that both religion and patriotism play in their political and popular cultures are within the western world ! Unique does of course not automatically translate to "false" or "dangerous", but can you really blame us for wanting to discuss and concerning us with those aspects that - from our outside perspective - stick out ? Especially, when we are convinced that those particularities greatly influence the nature of actual political decisions that have or at least could have severe repercussions on us and our countries. So, ultimately, Wendy, I am afraid there is only one thing that we could do other than discussing the matters that really concern us: shut up altogether (which btw is exactly what I have been doing for the most part over the last couple of weeks). But if you think twice you might realize that, while that option might spare you some annoyances in the short run, in the long run that might be prove to be extremely dangerous - especially if adopted on a much wider scale than just this little forum. I honestly fear that one of the most serious long-term consequences of the events of September 11th could be a growing estrangement or even alienation between the USA and Europe - due to a resurgence of patriotism and religiosity on one side and to a resurgence of anti-americanism and cultural arrogance on the other. And if observing the debates on this forum has served for one thing it is to contribute to my growing feeling that we are already dangerously close to losing the ability to really communicate with each other - at least on the political issues that really matter - because we are literally not speaking the "same language"... and this is a frustration that is shared - at least partially - by all the European members I have discussed the matter with ... (okay, three people are certainly in no way representative of "Europe") Thanks for bearing me out !

Well Ramon, to boil my response down in a nutshell... you're right the US does place a lot of emphasis on both patriotism and religion. In fact, we were FOUNDED upon these things. We always have and we always will be patriotic and have religious symbolism, or we will cease to be the United States. This has set us apart from Europe since the 1700's, it's nothing new. Why it should worry you now any more than it's ever worried people since we gained independence however is beyond me. You'll never get an answer to your questions that will satisfy I fear because the simple answer is that the US is different from any other nation. Always has been, always will be, and no, we do not need to change things to be more like European nations, although I can see why people of European nations such as yourself may think so. We never have tried to be like other nations, and I sincerely hope we never will. What is bad for you doesn't have to be bad for us, and to try to argue that it is will avail no one anything.



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"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - Lennon

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Sazerac: Well, you guys have finally done it. You've managed to run Cloudy off, now. We've lost Mark, we've lost Melusine, we ALMOST lost Moiraine, and now Cloudy. I hope every single last one of you is PROUD of yourselves. I may be the next to go.

Don't forget Bilqis, Slackerboy and Nick. I've been contemplating it as well.


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[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-22-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon: So, we don't keep coming back to the topics of patriotism and religion because we are the maliciously anti-religious, anti-American and even racist pack that Hugh enjoys to portray us as, but rather because some particularities of the American society make it inevitable in our opinion to discuss them: what many Americans fail to see is how extremely unique the prominent roles that both religion and patriotism play in their political and popular cultures are within the western world ! Unique does of course not automatically translate to "false" or "dangerous", but can you really blame us for wanting to discuss and concerning us with those aspects that - from our outside perspective - stick out ? Especially, when we are convinced that those particularities greatly influence the nature of actual political decisions that have or at least could have severe repercussions on us and our countries.

There a manner of exchanging ideas that includes soft words, voicings of respect, politeness, and knowing when not to speak that of late has been missing, despite Ironworks being a bastion of such.

It's called consideration.

I was in central park today. A bagpiper started playing. A woman with a miniature dog started talking to me and my friend and we mentioned the bagpipes.

"It's not even music" she said.

By definition she was clearly wrong, but for the sake of harmony and a continuance in the conversation I let it slide. Sometimes that's what we have to do. If we want people to keep talking to us we need to accomodate the things we disagree with. Its called tolerance. Accomodating behaviour.

Americans are hurting. The city has been wounded, people are losing jobs. (10,ooo people are being retrenched by a major company this week) Uncertainty and fear about ones mail abounds. Long traffic delays. Chaos.

What do we gain from criticising a unifying factor or a metaphysical concept that brings healing?

It comes across as mean. Pure and simple. People have better things to do with their time than hang around mean people.

So again I say. If you want to keep talking to someone, sometimes it's better to hold your tounge. Otherwise you may end up only talking - if not to yourself - to people who think like you.

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[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-22-2001).]

[250]

yorick, you gonna do the generalization for me?

Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Italian

pleasssssssssssssssssssssse, thank you!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by 250: yorick, you gonna do the generalization for me? Chinese Japanese Korean Italian pleasssssssssssssssssssssse, thank you!

(sigh)

The Chinese - inhabitants of the Middle Kingdom - are filled with the delusion that they are actually at the centre of the universe. Obsessively preoccupied with saving everyone elses face, all their conflicts happen in private and nothing gets resolved. Also, for some reason they have picked up on every obscure sport known to man that involves a small bat and some sort of missile, and then win these at Olympic events. They cannot drive.


The Japanese are perverted. The lights of Vegas have been enshrined as holy in Japanese culture which should be remnamed "GIANT CROWDED NEON-LIT WIERD-SEX AND VIOLENT-CARTOON LAND." They are all born with a camera emeshed in their hands and engage in "pack tourism" descending on sleepy tourist vistas with such loud fervor en masse that locals are driven from the scene. The Japanese will take any invention from America, refine it and then test it and test it and then test it again till it works better than the original American thingamy.

They cannot write Keyboard manuals though. These are designed purley to infuriate non-Japanese (who actually have time for a hobby).


Italians are bribe taking cassanovas who will attempt to steal your woman or man. As a race they are very lazy and are bad soldiers who play a very boring brand of "close the gate" football.
They are obsessed with small fast cars, fashion, food and wine, yet lose their temper quicker than a dog barks at a squirrel. It must be the wine.

Though passionate, they cannot drive.

I'll do Korean later

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[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-22-2001).]

[250]

thank you, Hugh, you are so nice!!

[Donut]

Originally posted by Yorick: [i]The British are xenophobic, stuffy, emotionally repressive, disunified and poor at sports. They all hate the French, Germans and all of Europe - thus travelling to America quicker than they would the continent - and cling to past glories because the present so drearily mirrors their climate. Miserable and sunless.

I wouldn't argue with any of that apart from the bit about past gloies. Those days are long gone.



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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas
Don't mention the score - I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Sazerac: Well, you guys have finally done it. You've managed to run Cloudy off, now. We've lost Mark, we've lost Melusine, we ALMOST lost Moiraine, and now Cloudy. I hope every single last one of you is PROUD of yourselves. I may be the next to go.

I'm getting so sick of this stuff! At first, I just stayed away from Ironworks altogether, but of course, after a couple of days I started to lurk and read some posts. I wish I hadn't - this is just not the way the place used to be, and don't try to explain that away by lame excuses about 'people come and go, that doesn't matter, it'll always stay the same Ironworks'. NO! It *is* important when old members leave, as in all cases it indicates the huge lack of respect that some people show in their posts and the obsession with pushing their points. I'm not saying that that's all that happens in this particular forum, because I do realise there have been useful discussions and beautiful posts, but my point is: it used to NEVER ever happen!
Bloody hell, now Amber -who was worshiped here like a goddess and treated as if she bloody were Ziroc's sidekick- is so fed up that she can't take it anymore and still people don't realise what's going wrong here!!
I posted a few times yesterday, because I was so glad that a loved old member returned... now I realise I still have no idea if it's even worth the trouble...
*sigh*
Saz, Memnoch, Ziroc, Javi - I cannot even find words to express my admiration for you guys, that you can put up with all of this, and even manage to stay calm, reasonable and diplomatic. My hat's off to you, and I hope it will get easier for you soon! Good luck!


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Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art