Israel VS. Lebanon

[Black Baron]

Hi all, i am not dead. Been abcent from the forum for a while. Killing terrorists in gaza strip is a demanding buisness.

Some comments:
Hizballah claims that some of our cities are occupied (Tiberias, Haifa etc). It is quite obvious that they want our annahilation. It is more than obvious that we want their annahialtion due to this fact.
The attack during wich 2 of our soldiers were kidnapped, was not provocated.
Some of the Hizballah members sit at the parliament. Since that they are not sacked, it makes for Casus Belli. In war shit happens.

2 mlns (!!!) of our citizens hide in bomb shelters, due to katyusha attacks, which can be described as terroristic attacks neto. Name one (!) country that would have sufferded that 2 mlns of its citizens (more than 20%) were hiding in bomb shelters. I want to see the one that will say that his country would not have carpet bombed Beirut instead of destroying one quarter full of terrorrist supporters.

This country fights for its existance since the 1920 (!!!!!), when arabs lead by hadj Amin Al huseini and aided by the british massacred the jewish settelments here. There is not a single country that fights for its existance for such long a time.

With all the respect that i feel for your countries and your "experience" with "polite and civic" terrorists (like IRA), please stand aside and let us do our work against the marauding islamic terrorism. You do not have as ingle clue how to proceed.

once in a while we do.
Please, i repeat, stand aside.

[Timber Loftis]

I have more responses to that than I can bother to form into a single coherent statement.

Would you both just go kill each other off and rid the planet of barbarians, please?

[pritchke]

It must be nice to have bomb shelters to house 2 million citizens. I don't think the innocent citizens in Lebanon have that luxury. What I find disturbing is the ratio of citizens killed to the terrorist. The citizen side is very, very high that it makes the tactics used seem almost worthless and pointless if you place any value on the life of a Lebanese child. At least it might be worth reevaluating the tactics used.

[ 07-28-2006, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Morgeruat]

The problem with a terrorist to civilian ratio is that most terrorists purposefully blend into the civilian population, and when the civilians aid them in their disguises it becomes hairier.

Who would have called the London bombers terrorists two weeks before the attack? Who would have called the Madrid bombers terrorists two weeks before the attacks? With most terrorists you can't objectively tell without a significant amount of investigation, when you have neighborhoods aiding them, well in war all bets are off and they become terrorists themselves due to their actions.

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: The problem with a terrorist to civilian ratio is that most terrorists purposefully blend into the civilian population, and when the civilians aid them in their disguises it becomes hairier. Who would have called the London bombers terrorists two weeks before the attack? Who would have called the Madrid bombers terrorists two weeks before the attacks?

If they were carrying Rocket Launchers as in this case they could have been easily identified. Now if the Israelis could only distinguish between the guy holding the rocket launcher to the little boy herding his sheep than that would be great. Personally I don't think they care who they kill as long as they aren't Isralli. Anyone who isn't a terrorist that was killed is just in the way.

[ 07-28-2006, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Black Baron]

Do you have any other war option then? I mean, apart from entering and conquering (oh my, what a dreaded word) Lebanon all over again?

Again i point you to the fact that should your own country have the same problems as we do, the bombing will be done with no restraint at all. F.e- Afghan and iraq.

We do not have bomb shelters to house 2 mln, some of the citizens simply go to a loong vacation to Eilat or Tel Aviv.

Timber, i totally agree that we should be given free hand dealing with our enemies (the so called barbarians).
Please explain to me why we have to restrain ourselves when we have an unprovocked attack from a neighboring state (read my first post in this topic). Please explain to me also why USA may carry on destruction on a far grander scale than we (apart from the obvious reason- USA can because it is USA). No country will sit in peace when another stste shouts :down with Israel/USA/fillthespot, and systematically kidnaps soldiers and conducts terror on the state's soil. That was the reason why Taliban were overthrown. The world cheered (despite the fact the USA had done the same thigs that we do now) then. Now the world tries to shame us when we do the same thing that USA had done. i can hardly find the logic in it.

Maybe because 11/9/2001 was more spectacular?

[Timber Loftis]

Black Baron, your problem is that you sit on one side that wants to take no blame. Your neighboring enemies also sit on a side that wants to take no blame.

Neither you nor your enemies will ever be able to get over your differences until you realize that over the years you have both made some really stupid stupid mistakes, some very barbaric decisions, and some downright evil choices. There isn't a society in the middle east that doesn't have bloodlust, and it's been that way for decades. You are no less guilty than the Islamicists you fight.

You live in, are part of, and perpetuate a cycle of violence that is just mind-boggling.

I had a jewish friend explain to me once that Jews see themselves as god's chosen who must show the rest of us the way. If Israel represents the "chosen ones" and "the way" then we are all in trouble.

Did you see this picture in the other thread, Baron?


Tell me what distinguishes the bloodlust being taught to this girl from the young arab beign taught to build a pipe bomb? Both are being taught spite, violence, and barbarism by their parents and their society.

[ 07-28-2006, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Memnoch]

I will reiterate what I said before, with a few additions. Both sides will have to compromise and TRUST in the other in this conflict. As a starting point, the following will need to happen:

1. Israel and Hezbollah/Lebanon (I am considering Hezbollah and Lebanon the same thing for a number of reasons) should honour an immediate ceasefire.

2. Syria, Palestine and Iran (and their military arms in Hezbollah and Hamas) will need to follow the lead of Egypt, Jordan and other moderate Arab nations in accepting Israel's right to exist.

3. Hamas and Hezbollah need to lay down their arms like the IRA did to be fully recognised as legitimate partners in the negotiation process.

4. Firing Katyusha rockets into northern Israel should stop, as should the suicide bombings. In return Israel should stop its targetted assassinations of Hezbollah and Hamas leaders.

5. Israel can then withdraw to pre-1967 borders (I will remind you that had the 1967 war not been initiated by Syria, Egypt etc the Arab land wouldn't have been taken) and return the land that was taken during that war.

6. Israel should give the Gaza Strip and West Bank to the Palestinians.

7. Prisoner exchange should take place on both sides as a goodwill gesture.

8. Syria and Iran should stop using Lebanon as their playground.

9. A multinational peacekeeping force should then be deployed to the ceded land to keep order in the short- to medium-term.

This seems quite simple to me, but it isn't because neither side trusts the other to keep their word, which is understandable - Israel has been invaded at least four or five times since 1948, most of them by surprise attacks. You can understand their caution. But unfortunately for them (and the rest of the Middle East) Israel's "eye for an eye" solution is not a long term solution as it just engenders more hatred. For every Hezbollah member Israel kills, more rise up to take their place.

For peace to work there has to be trust on both sides. There are many people in the Middle East today more interested in revenge than peace for their children. Hezbollah and Hamas and all the rest of them are driven by ideology. You can't bomb an ideology - all you can do is re-educate, or change the environment of utter despair and hopelessness that foments this ideology.

On a personal note, I'm glad you're ok, Black Baron. Stay safe.

[ 07-28-2006, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Black Baron]

The picture is well known to me, Timber, i have seen it in our newspapers.
The little girl (as well as other kids here) is taught to fight terrorists and to hate them. This is a militaristic society where almost everyone goes to the army in order to defend this state against the likes of Nasrallah. Lots of kids (but not all of them, since that their views are also shaped by parents, which in turn may be pacifists) are taught the simple truth-Terrorist is a bad guy. (notice that terrorist is not an arab or a palestinian in that equasion).

Hizballah teaches another thing-Israel is bad. All of the jews here are bad guys. So, let's kill them all and liberate the palestinians!

See the difference? Hardly a bloodlust from our side.

Besides, you still did not give me any other war solution. Hizballah hides his rockes in civilian houses. Since that we care about our sovereignity and safety of our citizens a lot more than we do about lebanonians (who knew in the first place that there can be such an outcome) we bomb them.
Since that we know that Hizballah enjoys support from the Shiite communities, we bomb them too. They support terrorrists? They are therefore terrorists themselves. Too bad for them.
Since that Hizballah is lebanon we bomb their infrastructures. We try to convey to the Middle east states (syria and iran mainly) the fact that terrorism and kidnapping does not pay off.

You have also failed to explain to me why is our war with all its horrible aspects, less justified than USA vs Taliban war.

By the way, if you want me to believe that your country did not have these little kids that wrote "to Ben laden with love" on the bombs, let me dissappoint you.
There were such kids.

So is your country "teaches bloodlust" too?

In my opinion-no.
As far as i understand your thoghts- yes.

[TheGrandSlayer]

This just in: An Israeli air strike kills 60, many of which were children. The reasoning behind the bombing was that, “Hezbollah was firing rockets from the site”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14100258/?GT1=8307

I feel that in this war, there is far too much “Collateral Damage” to be convenient.