Serbs sue Germany over bridge attack

Skunk · 10-15-2003, 07:09 PM

Serbs sue Germany over bridge attack
Relatives of civilians killed when Nato aircraft bombed a Serbian town in 1999 have put their claims for compensation to a court in Germany, despite the fact that no German planes were involved in the action.
Ten civilians were killed when Nato jets targeted a bridge near a busy market place in the town of Varvarin, as part of efforts to put pressure on the then Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic.

The relatives claimed a million euros in damages at the state court in Bonn.

They say Germany must take responsibility as a member of Nato.

Berlin has argued that it is not liable since neither German planes nor German pilots were involved.

Lawyers say a German court was chosen because the families have had support from human rights activists in Germany.

Some media in Germany have suggested that the country's foreign policy itself is on trial.

The suit could serve as a test case for others seeking damages from Nato countries.

The claimants scaled down their original request for 3.5 million euros when the proceedings opened, to bring it in line with other similar settlements in Germany.

Three people were killed and five injured in initial raids by F-16 fighters on the bridge in Varvarin, 110 miles (180km) south-east of Belgrade.

The aircraft returned minutes later, killing seven more and injuring another 12, among them people who were trying to help victims of the first attack.

Nato said that the bridge was a legitimate target and denied targeting civilians.

However, the claimants argue that the raid violated the Geneva Conventions, since it came without warning and was carried out on a busy market day.

"That was murder, bombing ordinary civilians in broad daylight," Zoran Milenkovic, whose 15-year-old daughter was killed in the raid, told the Associated Press news agency.

Doubts have also been raised about the military significance of the bridge, which has a maximum capacity of 12 metric tons.

Lawyers for the victims say the most important thing for the claimants is to get an admission of wrongdoing.

"The least important thing is the money, it's about someone saying that what happened was wrong," said lawyer Guel Pinar.

Dreamer128 · 10-16-2003, 07:42 AM

A tragic incident, to say the least. Although I don't think the term 'íncident' does it justice.
I wonder why they don't just sue the country to which the planes did belong, rather then a random member of Nato.

Skunk · 10-16-2003, 10:41 AM

Well, first of all, they couldn't sue the US government through the US courts as a political decision would be made to throw out the case on the grounds that no crime took place as it was a 'justifiable' act during war.

If they took the case straight to the ICJ, it would probably throw it out too for the same political reasons (it did this with several similar cases both during and after the conflict).

So to get around this, they are engaging in legal manouvres. Germany has some fairly liberal laws which will allow this action to be heard in a court of law - and the government is powerless to order the case to be thrown out.
What the plaintiffs are seeking is a ruling that Germany, by virtue of its membership of NATO, was guilty of being culpable of the alleged crime.

If they get this ruling, then they have effectively proven (in a court of law) that a crime took place. It then becomes possible for them to approach the ICJ to hear a claim for damages against the US - without fear of the ICJ refusing to hear the case on the (political) grounds that it was a valid military action in a time of war.

Of course, I'm only offering a hypothesis...

khazadman · 10-16-2003, 12:36 PM

Weren't the Serbs famous for bombing busy markets and bridges in their latest quest for a Greater Serbia? I.m not sorry but you do not warn your enemy that you are going to attack. That would be stupid.

Sir Taliesin · 10-16-2003, 12:44 PM

Aren't the Serbs the ones that used to round up people, shoot the men and boys and rape the women and girls till they got pregnent and then cast them out? Maybe the Kosavars anf Bosian Muslims should sue Germany for allowing that to continue for who knows how long before NATO finally did something about it.

Spelca · 10-16-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by khazadman:
Weren't the Serbs famous for bombing busy markets and bridges in their latest quest for a Greater Serbia? I.m not sorry but you do not warn your enemy that you are going to attack. That would be stupid.

I didn't know civilians are the enemy. Oh no, wait, all Serbs are "evil", right? [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

Skunk · 10-16-2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by khazadman:
Weren't the Serbs famous for bombing busy markets and bridges in their latest quest for a Greater Serbia? I.m not sorry but you do not warn your enemy that you are going to attack. That would be stupid.

Many did - and several have already faced trial for their crimes, many others are awaiting trial and dozens more are on the run from international arrest warrants.

Justice should not be unbalanced though - if one side is made to pay for its crimes, then so should the other side (if there is indeed a case to answer).

WillowIX · 10-16-2003, 05:43 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with Spelca! The civilians, or majority, are suffering for what the minority did, nothing usual about that. But IIRC Serbia received money to rebuild. Didn't they? Figures anyone? If they didn't get enough to rebuild their country they certainly could ask for more, not suing the first NATO country they can find...

Skunk · 10-17-2003, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WillowIX:
I wholeheartedly agree with Spelca! The civilians, or majority, are suffering for what the minority did, nothing usual about that. But IIRC Serbia received money to rebuild. Didn't they? Figures anyone? If they didn't get enough to rebuild their country they certainly could ask for more, not suing the first NATO country they can find...

It's not about the money - it's about justice.
It's about recognition that a crime (allegedly) took place.

The amount of money that the plaintiffs could possibly win under German formula based compensation will be nominal - not worth the effort if pecuniary gain was the point of the action.

And if they win their case and move on with a successful action against the US via the ICJ - no-one would be foolish enough to think that the US would actually pay out damages. Even if the ICJ awarded a nominal $1 in compensation, US politicians would rather sell their own homes than reach into their pockets to pay it.

Zoran Milenkovic doesn't want cash to replace her daughter - she wants someone in gaol for 'murdering' her daughter. Would we have accepted $200 million from Milosovic in exchange for granting him immunity from prosecution?

In Srebrenica 7,000 civilians were murdered by Serb forces - it was a war crime. The architect of that massacre was immediately indited. But what about the Dutch Nato Commander (Karreman) who not only turfed out muslims from the Nato enclave into the hands of the Serb forces, but actually ordered his men to disarm them and help put them onto the death buses - did he go to trial?

No, he was promoted and sent to Washington as a military liason officer.
We haven't exactly been equal-handed in our dispensation of justice.

And *that* is where it's at - and that is the motive behind this action.

Ar-Cunin · 10-17-2003, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by khazadman:
Weren't the Serbs famous for bombing busy markets and bridges in their latest quest for a Greater Serbia? I.m not sorry but you do not warn your enemy that you are going to attack. That would be stupid.

So the Serbs bomb the muslims (marketplaces) - then 'the West' bomb the Serbs (marketplaces). Does this mean it is the muslims turn to bomb 'the West' (marketplaces) [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]
(or did Sept. 11. already take care of that?) [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]

What goes around comes around.

P.S. Don't mind me - I'm just rambling. [img]smile.gif[/img]

10-16-2003, 12:44 PM	#5
Sir Taliesin Silver Dragon Join Date: March 4, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN USA Age: 60 Posts: 1,641	Aren't the Serbs the ones that used to round up people, shoot the men and boys and rape the women and girls till they got pregnent and then cast them out? Maybe the Kosavars anf Bosian Muslims should sue Germany for allowing that to continue for who knows how long before NATO finally did something about it. __________________ Sir Taliesin<br /><br />Hello... Good bye.

10-16-2003, 05:43 PM	#8
WillowIX Apophis Join Date: July 10, 2001 Location: By a big blue lake, Canada Age: 50 Posts: 4,628	I wholeheartedly agree with Spelca! The civilians, or majority, are suffering for what the minority did, nothing usual about that. But IIRC Serbia received money to rebuild. Didn't they? Figures anyone? If they didn't get enough to rebuild their country they certainly could ask for more, not suing the first NATO country they can find... __________________ Confuzzled by nature.

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10-15-2003, 07:09 PM	#1
Skunk Banned User Join Date: September 3, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 62 Posts: 1,463	Serbs sue Germany over bridge attack Relatives of civilians killed when Nato aircraft bombed a Serbian town in 1999 have put their claims for compensation to a court in Germany, despite the fact that no German planes were involved in the action. Ten civilians were killed when Nato jets targeted a bridge near a busy market place in the town of Varvarin, as part of efforts to put pressure on the then Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic. The relatives claimed a million euros in damages at the state court in Bonn. They say Germany must take responsibility as a member of Nato. Berlin has argued that it is not liable since neither German planes nor German pilots were involved. Lawyers say a German court was chosen because the families have had support from human rights activists in Germany. Some media in Germany have suggested that the country's foreign policy itself is on trial. The suit could serve as a test case for others seeking damages from Nato countries. The claimants scaled down their original request for 3.5 million euros when the proceedings opened, to bring it in line with other similar settlements in Germany. Three people were killed and five injured in initial raids by F-16 fighters on the bridge in Varvarin, 110 miles (180km) south-east of Belgrade. The aircraft returned minutes later, killing seven more and injuring another 12, among them people who were trying to help victims of the first attack. Nato said that the bridge was a legitimate target and denied targeting civilians. However, the claimants argue that the raid violated the Geneva Conventions, since it came without warning and was carried out on a busy market day. "That was murder, bombing ordinary civilians in broad daylight," Zoran Milenkovic, whose 15-year-old daughter was killed in the raid, told the Associated Press news agency. Doubts have also been raised about the military significance of the bridge, which has a maximum capacity of 12 metric tons. Lawyers for the victims say the most important thing for the claimants is to get an admission of wrongdoing. "The least important thing is the money, it's about someone saying that what happened was wrong," said lawyer Guel Pinar.

10-16-2003, 07:42 AM	#2
Dreamer128 Dracolisk Join Date: March 21, 2001 Location: Europe Age: 39 Posts: 6,136	A tragic incident, to say the least. Although I don't think the term 'íncident' does it justice. I wonder why they don't just sue the country to which the planes did belong, rather then a random member of Nato.

10-16-2003, 10:41 AM	#3
Skunk Banned User Join Date: September 3, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 62 Posts: 1,463	Well, first of all, they couldn't sue the US government through the US courts as a political decision would be made to throw out the case on the grounds that no crime took place as it was a 'justifiable' act during war. If they took the case straight to the ICJ, it would probably throw it out too for the same political reasons (it did this with several similar cases both during and after the conflict). So to get around this, they are engaging in legal manouvres. Germany has some fairly liberal laws which will allow this action to be heard in a court of law - and the government is powerless to order the case to be thrown out. What the plaintiffs are seeking is a ruling that Germany, by virtue of its membership of NATO, was guilty of being culpable of the alleged crime. If they get this ruling, then they have effectively proven (in a court of law) that a crime took place. It then becomes possible for them to approach the ICJ to hear a claim for damages against the US - without fear of the ICJ refusing to hear the case on the (political) grounds that it was a valid military action in a time of war. Of course, I'm only offering a hypothesis...

10-16-2003, 12:36 PM	#4
khazadman User suspended until [Feb13] Join Date: December 6, 2001 Location: the south side of ol virginny Age: 62 Posts: 1,172	Weren't the Serbs famous for bombing busy markets and bridges in their latest quest for a Greater Serbia? I.m not sorry but you do not warn your enemy that you are going to attack. That would be stupid.

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