10-23-2003, 12:01 AM | #71 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
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Besides, what has that got to do with anything? You're automatically dismissing my position because.... I'm here? Why? Because I'm talking to you on the net? What possible reason? Because experts are always "them" and never "us" How very strange. How small minded. My opinions co-align with Cereks who is one of the few on this board who's read the bible in depth. Why is it not possible that Cerek or myself are actually "experts" choosing to discuss online for example? You've automatically excluded that possibility whatsoever. What possible reason do you have for dismissing my opinions as being any less knowledgeable than anyone elses? And why even throw that in in such snide fashion? Where does that get us? Well here's news!! I happily admit that someone like C.S.Lewis is a wiser man than I. I go to church to hear words from a wiser man than I. What does that prove? I still read the bible for myself if he says something I had no understanding of. I still read the source work for myself if a preacher more "expert" than myself quotes it in church. What you are advocating is lunacy. If I accepted your limitational viewpoint, I would still be in my fathers church, with all his intepretations, not my own, getting spoonfed all my beliefs. My father is an "expert" trained in Hebrew and Koine Greek, and with decades more bible reading, and teaching and preaching under his belt than I do. But I don't feel "inferior" or that my contrasting opinions are even wrong by simple virtue of his "expertise". I read the bible for myself, decide for myself, and have a personal ongoing relationship with God. [ 10-23-2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ] |
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10-23-2003, 01:07 AM | #72 | |||||||
40th Level Warrior
Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
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All in all, I think you read an insult where I didn't mean one. |
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10-23-2003, 02:31 AM | #73 | |||||||
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
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[/QUOTE]You seem to forget that the "expert" who wrote those "contradictions" was a musician... like myself, who had less experience within christian music, bible colleges and the church than I have had. Why is this fellow considered by you an expert and I am not? Secondly, they were not contradictions that Chewbacca had discovered himself or even read, Had he stumbled upon them naturally, he would have found no contradiction in 90% of them. In actual fact, all the contradictions were explained. I began by mowing through them before finding salf a dozen websites that refuted them.... saving my time. A couple of the "contradictions" were so brazenly odd, that no contradiction could be found to refute. The writer has ignored attempts to get him to elaborate on them. Quote:
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Bear in mind I have TAUGHT at Bible colleges in three countries. As a rule America seems to emphasise college education and letters after peoples names. Hence the internet colleges that sell meaningless degrees. The letters mean nothing. What you do with them means everything. I'm a self taught musician who didn't go to music college and yet have been more sucessful than 99% of musicians. Similarly, my first bible college was the family dinner table. But this is not about me.... it is about the notion that for some reason, THEY, must be more knowledgeable than someone here. It's most odd. Quote:
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All in all, I think you read an insult where I didn't mean one.[/QUOTE]I stand by what I've said. |
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10-23-2003, 02:45 AM | #74 |
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i hope it's not too late to mention that there was a fascinating in depth feature in the september national geographic on slavery, and how it is alive and well in the world, including in europe and america.
and for the record, i support the right to die. |
10-23-2003, 04:04 AM | #75 | |||
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But this is a public forum - not a bible or Qu'ran class and a 5,000 word hermeneutical answer would be interminable for the majority of readers. Quote:
Do the beliefs of the KKK represent the mainstream views of Christians? Go to their websites (I will *not* link racist material) and you will find that they justify their actions with bible verses. This man also believed that he was upholding Christian doctrine - and isn't short of a bible verse or two either. No-one with the slightest knowledge of Christian doctrine believes that they are acting according to the mainstream interpretation of their faith - to claim otherwise would be offensive to most Christians. Perhaps you should consider how offensive your statement was towards Islam. In any event, until you apologise for your unfounded vilification of Islam and for disparaging me, I see no reason to continue any further dialogue with you in this or other threads. |
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10-23-2003, 11:54 AM | #76 | ||||||
Drow Warrior
Join Date: September 16, 2003
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When used in this way, laws do not force another’s will upon anyone, but they provide protection from having another person force their will upon you. As to people using influence, persuasion, and coercion to force their will against you, ultimately, if physical force is removed from the equation, the choice is still yours to do as you please. Quote:
I can also state with absolute certainty that my argument does not compare to yours at all. Your argument on this topic is based upon your personal beliefs while my argument is not. This alone removes any possibility of comparison based on the composition of our arguments. The simple fact is suicide does not infringe on anyone’s personal rights. In addition, a person committing suicide is in no way forcing their beliefs or will upon another. In another posted you state that another person is small-minded. I leave you with a question: Is the person who believes others should live and be controlled according to his views small minded, or the skeptical person who questions the validity of another through a medium that allows for supreme ambiguity? |
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10-23-2003, 02:01 PM | #77 |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
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Sorry Maelakin, but you are being hypocritical in your arguement.
Your belief in what is right or wrong is determining your views on this matter. You believe it is wrong to bring in theology into a social question. Yet this is your belief, and directly influencing your ideas. You cannot, we cannot, I cannot, seperate the self from belief. Even attempting objectivity itself is reliant on the belief that pursuing objectivity is of value!! It contradicts itself. Doctor, heal thyself. |
10-23-2003, 02:11 PM | #78 | |||
Very Mad Bird
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But this is a public forum - not a bible or Qu'ran class and a 5,000 word hermeneutical answer would be interminable for the majority of readers. Quote:
Do the beliefs of the KKK represent the mainstream views of Christians? Go to their websites (I will *not* link racist material) and you will find that they justify their actions with bible verses. This man also believed that he was upholding Christian doctrine - and isn't short of a bible verse or two either. No-one with the slightest knowledge of Christian doctrine believes that they are acting according to the mainstream interpretation of their faith - to claim otherwise would be offensive to most Christians. Perhaps you should consider how offensive your statement was towards Islam. In any event, until you apologise for your unfounded vilification of Islam and for disparaging me, I see no reason to continue any further dialogue with you in this or other threads. [/QUOTE]I have repeatedly stated that a person committing even self defense goes AGAINST Jesus example and teaching, and that a person commiting violence of the OFFENSE is following Muhammads life example, whether or not the teaching is limited to a spiritual context or not. Comparing the action of the follower with the source material they claim to follow is the sure way to ascertain if they practice what they preach. Otherwise I could walk around calling myself a Buddhist... no really I am. I don't follow Buddha, don't believe in pantheism, nor reincarnation, nor Nirvana. I support war and achieving goals through violence. I don't advocate detatchment, in fact I advocate hedonism and hoarding possessions. But I'm still Buddhist!!! Yeah! Or... perhaps I am an atheist. But I believe in God.. that's right, a creator... but I'm an atheist! Or maybe I am really a Muslim!! I follow Muhammad Ali, and believe that boxing is the key to salvation! Parkinsons disease is actually a higher state of conciousness! The Prophet David Koresh was Muhammad Ali in idiot form. I love them both because I am a good Muslim-Atheist-Buddhist!! Chaos! Chaos! What are we to do?!! ***READ THE SOURCE THE PERSON CLAIMS TO FOLLOW.*** A Christian murdering in the name of Jesus is doing nothing of the sort. A Muslim waging war in the manner Muhammad did, IS doing so. |
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10-23-2003, 02:16 PM | #79 |
40th Level Warrior
Join Date: July 11, 2002
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I think we've all gotten really ivory tower here. Let's bring it down a notch. Seems to me we own *some* part of ourselves. I would bet the vast majority of posters on this board agree with that statement, and Yorick your belief that we do not own ourselves any at all is not only not mainstream, it's exceedingly rare from my experience.
I would also assert that if we own *some* part of ourselves, it is likely that we do own the OFF switch, because the ability to be dispossessed of ownership or destroy what you own is likely one of the most basic elements of ownership. It seems to me. I don't know that I would say this is mainstream, but I think it seems reasonable. Then again, I guess it depends on the nature of your limited ownership of self. A shareholder owns part of a corporation, but it takes a super-majority of the special voting stock guys to close the thing down and end it. So, I realize there are arguments against this conclusion. I think in the end we can come to at least two certainties. One, if you own yourself absolutely, you have a right to die. Two, if you own yourself in the majority then you should and probably do have a right to die. Then again, seatbelts are required in 49 states. [ 10-23-2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ] |
10-23-2003, 02:37 PM | #80 |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
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But is there an "off switch" Timber? To commit suicide, you must directly interfere with the natural course of your life. We all die. Murder, manslaughter and suicide are those lives ending as a result of HUMAN INTERVENTION. That's not switching the "off-switch".
If there is an "off switch" it is losing the will to live. As I have said repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, humans who lose the will to live die. That is the off switch. Proactively terminating ones life is overwhelmingly a way of escaping accute pain. If you really don't want to live, you will die. If you want to end pain under any circumstances, self destruction such as suicide (or chemical escapism) are behavioural paths often chosen by those unable to see alternatives. [ 10-23-2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ] |
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