12-18-2003, 06:12 AM | #1 |
Jack Burton
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Airstrip One
Age: 40
Posts: 5,571
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During the planning of a crime?
Once the crime has been commited? Once he is found guilty? So if I commit a crime and get found not guilty am I a criminal or am I an innocent man? Does it make a difference if the weight of evidence is overwhelming?
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[img]\"http://www.wheatsheaf.freeserve.co.uk/roastspurs.gif\" alt=\" - \" /> <br />Proud member of the Axis of Upheaval<br />Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas<br />Josiah Bartlet - the best President the US never had.<br />The 1st D in the D & D Show |
12-18-2003, 06:24 AM | #2 |
Harper
Join Date: October 6, 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 4,706
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If the cops didn't see it, I didn't do it...
[img]smile.gif[/img] |
12-18-2003, 07:43 AM | #3 |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,788
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During the planning of a crime?
Can be - "conspiracy" and "posession with intent" are examples. Once the crime has been commited? Absolutely - once you have committed a criminal act, you are a criminal, but see below. Once he is found guilty? Then you become a convicted criminal and the state can levy whatever sentence the offence merits. Up to that point, whether a criminal act has been committed or not, the state has no right to take sanctions beyond detention pending trial (if justified). [ 12-18-2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Mouse ]
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Regards Mouse (Occasional crooner and all round friendly Scottish rodent) |
12-18-2003, 08:18 AM | #4 | |
Quintesson
Join Date: September 12, 2001
Location: Ewing, NJ
Age: 42
Posts: 1,079
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Quote:
I would say no, due to the simple fact that "not guilty" is not the same as "innocent". If a jury trial was meant to prove that someone was innocent then the burden of proof would be on the defendant. All a "not guilty" verdict means was that the prosecutor was unable to prove his case. |
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12-19-2003, 06:28 AM | #5 |
Lord Ao
Join Date: March 3, 2001
Location: London, England
Age: 30
Posts: 2,023
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My mate drove to manchester to commit an armed robbery. He'd never been caught or convicted of any previous crime although he was a professional armed robber. The operation was a sting from start to finish. He, I and others in the knowledge are convinced the police planned to murder them rather than capture them. (Ever seen a dead armed robber on the deck shot by the police? It happens, far easier to solve that way too). A lone unplanned witness fouled things for the police who then had no absolute case as the place they went to rob never existed.
3 loaded handguns, balaclavas etc in the car sealed his fate and the fate of others and he received 19 years for conspiracy to murder and rob. He spent 13 years 5 months banged up as a "Category A dispersal" prisoner. He was returned to the streets a heroin addict after his *spit* rehabillitation. Good question, who are the real criminals? |
12-19-2003, 10:55 AM | #6 |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
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One doesn't become a criminal until 3 conditions are met.
1) those with the authority make the claim. 2) those with the power to back the claim up make it. 3) those with the will to make the claim do so. until then you are simply a human that other humans have opinions of, just like everybody else.
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
12-19-2003, 10:59 AM | #7 | |
Jack Burton
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Airstrip One
Age: 40
Posts: 5,571
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Quote:
As to 2) Am I a criminal just because they have the power to back there claim up? Even if I( didn't commit the crime.
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[img]\"http://www.wheatsheaf.freeserve.co.uk/roastspurs.gif\" alt=\" - \" /> <br />Proud member of the Axis of Upheaval<br />Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas<br />Josiah Bartlet - the best President the US never had.<br />The 1st D in the D & D Show |
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12-19-2003, 11:14 AM | #8 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
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Quote:
As to 2) Am I a criminal just because they have the power to back there claim up? Even if I( didn't commit the crime. [/QUOTE]By your and most civilized standards it doesn't seem right, but in reality that is exactly the way it is, unless there is some authorthity with the power and will to make the claims you are not a criminal. ie: if you are in country A and the laws of that country say you can kill somebody for looking at you goat then you are not a criminal if you kill them for looking at your goat. Now if you are in country B and it's laws say you can't kill anybody for any reason, and you kill somebody for looking at your goat then you're a criminal provided those with the authority have the power and will to carry out their laws. The worlds prisons are full of people that don't reconize the authority of the state that calls them criminals, but they are still in prison. The world is full of people that have fled to other counties, where the country they comitted a crime in doesn't have the power to back up the claim. Likewise the world is full of people where the authorities don't have the will to make the claim, ie: just a petty crime, cost too much, ahh he's my brother -in-law and I don't want to arrest him.
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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12-19-2003, 12:26 PM | #9 |
40th Level Warrior
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Planning something Donut ?
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12-19-2003, 02:16 PM | #10 |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,788
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I would ratchet the whole thing back. As soon as you have committed a crime you're a criminal. Whether you have been caught/convicted/punished by the state is immaterial. That's just adding official recognition post facto.
It's like being HIV positive. As soon as you have the virus, that's your status. The test only confirms it.
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Regards Mouse (Occasional crooner and all round friendly Scottish rodent) |
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