Schizophrenia or Spiritual Awakening?

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Luvian: The first step toward healing is accepting that you have a problem.

I see. Interesting herd philosophy you have Luvian [img]smile.gif[/img]

The first step toward self-contentment is accepting that you are different.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: The first step toward healing is accepting that you have a problem.

I see. Interesting herd philosophy you have Luvian [img]smile.gif[/img]

The first step toward self-contentment is accepting that you are different. [/QUOTE]I have both mild Paranoia and Schizophrenia. Thankfully except in crysis, I can still tell the difference between the real world and delusion.

By pretending someone does not have problems, or by encouraging his delusion, you're only help him lose the fight with reality.

If a kid tell you he think he can fly, will you tell him "Great! You're special, jump off the window!" ? You know he can't fly, you would be hurting him by encouraging him. It's the same thing with sick people, only a little less obvious because they are older and you think they have a better judgement, which they don't, in that case.

[Yorick]

This is a very interesting discussion.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Luvian: If a kid tell you he think he can fly, will you tell him "Great! You're special, jump off the window!" ? You know he can't fly, you would be hurting him by encouraging him. It's the same thing with sick people, only a little less obvious because they are older and you think they have a better judgement, which they don't, in that case.

You're putting words in my mouth now.
I guess we have different ideas on what constitutes sickness. I just don't believe there is such a thing as THE real world.

Ultimately, everyone, even people whom modern medicine deem 'mentally unsound', are responsible for their actions in the world they inhabit. There is a predilection in modern medicinal practice (and indeed in modern 'Western' culture itself) to preserve the herd at all costs. But if someone wants to fly, I mean if they really really want to fly, why not let them try? Why brand those who do not conform to local definitions of 'normality' as insane? What do you gain by treating them as if they are ill? Do you preserve their life somehow? Stave off their inevitable death just for the sake of it? In doing so, you don't preserve them at all, you preserve the fantasy of what you want them to be.

It's just my view, but I think people need to let go of each other. People need to let go of survival for survival's sake. You're not safe, you're not normal. No one ever has been, no one ever will be. So what?

[Chewbacca]

An interesting topic that I understand firsthand.

I went through a period of extreme mental unstability not unlike schizophrenia early in my study and practice of Shamanism. Sparing the difficult to describe details, I grew out of this phase over the course of several months- perhaps a year, with a far more clearer understanding of what it means to be spiritual, compassionate, and empathic. Afterwords I discovered this is not an unusual expirience for someone on a path like mine.

It turns out in some cultures, exhibiting signs of mental illness was a desirable trait for a shaman as it proved a closer than usual connection to the unseen realm and the ability to channel spirits.


My wife is in charge of a carehouse for Schizophrenics. It is kind of like a halfway house designed to provide some normalcy for sufferers who's illness is not severe enough for hospitalization yet still merits 24 hour a day available care. I have met and gotten to know many of the residents.

I do have to wonder if any of those folks were born in another time and culture if they would be considered one of the holy members of the tribe, rather than one of the sick and in need of constant care.

One thing is clear- Schizophrenia is a treatable disease of the brain and pysche. It does not simply pass due to sheer willpower and/or personal revelation alone as was the case in my expirience.

I find it both curious and heartening the DSM-IV now has a designation for what I went through but I am skeptical as well. For one, it would be a bad thing indeed to diagnose a person as having a "spiritual problem" when they actually have a brain disease.

In my case I had some guidance and personal insight that what I was expiriencing would pass and was part of the path I chose. If it were not for this guidance and insight I would have probably ended up seeking professional help and would have been quite doubtful if a counselor told me I was simply having a 'spiritual problem'.

My point-I say treat schizophrenia like schizophrenia until it is evident it is not.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: For one, it would be a bad thing indeed to diagnose a person as having a "spiritual problem" when they actually have a brain disease.

I would say the two are either swappable terms, or intertwined and inseperable. A broken spirit is a mental problem. A "free spirit" is a result of mental processes. How do you seperate the two? In feeding your mind, you feed your spirit. In healing your mind you heal you spirit. And vice versa.

I like doctors and counsellors that take a "holistic" approach to health. Someones spiritual or mental health directly impacts their physical health. A positive mindset increases the bodies healing process. I do have firsthand experience of this, having undergone five general anaesthetic operations in hospital.

The mind is part of the body. A positive mindset is going to be as applicable, if not more so in mental disease than other physical ailments, even if harder to achieve, due to the part of the body that needs to function, being ill.

Like saying you need to walk to get better, but your legs are broken. Ah the mysterious conundrum.

One thing I noticed Chewbacca, was your reference to Shamanism, and the commonality of schitzophrenic symptoms. When taking into account various Jewish/Christian beliefs of demon posession being the source of Shamanic power, and demon possession being A cause of certain schitzophrenic illnesses, it would seem the two viewpoints line up wouldn't you say?

Certainly the Chinese friends I had in Singapore had many a tale concerning such matters.
I take my western cynicism into such topics but try and keep an open mind..... er.. in the opinion forming manner of speaking.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: If a kid tell you he think he can fly, will you tell him "Great! You're special, jump off the window!" ? You know he can't fly, you would be hurting him by encouraging him. It's the same thing with sick people, only a little less obvious because they are older and you think they have a better judgement, which they don't, in that case.

You're putting words in my mouth now.
I guess we have different ideas on what constitutes sickness. I just don't believe there is such a thing as THE real world.

Ultimately, everyone, even people whom modern medicine deem 'mentally unsound', are responsible for their actions in the world they inhabit. There is a predilection in modern medicinal practice (and indeed in modern 'Western' culture itself) to preserve the herd at all costs. But if someone wants to fly, I mean if they really really want to fly, why not let them try? Why brand those who do not conform to local definitions of 'normality' as insane? What do you gain by treating them as if they are ill? Do you preserve their life somehow? Stave off their inevitable death just for the sake of it? In doing so, you don't preserve them at all, you preserve the fantasy of what you want them to be.

It's just my view, but I think people need to let go of each other. People need to let go of survival for survival's sake. You're not safe, you're not normal. No one ever has been, no one ever will be. So what? [/QUOTE]That's awesome if you're right, but what if you're wrong, and the world IS real, and the one life is all the person has?

Some people have physical damage to their brain. Doctors who use forceps at birth for example, have damaged babies brains irreversably. How do they fit into the scheme of things? They are forever a child. Unable to fully develop mental health. It's not a curable illness. It's damage. The part of the brain they need, just isn't there.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: For one, it would be a bad thing indeed to diagnose a person as having a "spiritual problem" when they actually have a brain disease.

I like doctors and counsellors that take a "holistic" approach to health. [/QUOTE]Me too, but that wasn't what I was refering too. I was speaking in the context of the OP and a potential for misdiagnosis. There is also the potential for projection if a therapist believes strongly in the philosophy and practice that is the foundation for the new DSM IV classification.

[The Hierophant]

First off, Luvian, I want to apologise if I came across as being hostile. I read over my post and I certainly doesn't 'feel' the same written down as it did in my head.

Also, to Yorick and Chewbacca, I assume your faiths involve the interaction of incorporeal entities with 'physical' bodies? Does being 'possessed' or 'ridden' by the spirit/daemon involve a suspension of 'rational' thought in your opinion? In which case, if brain damage also results in such irrationality, can any distinction be drawn between brain damamge spiritual transcendance?

Chewie, where you say you treat schizophrenia as schizophrenia until it is evident that it is not, how do you make the distinction between the two? I'm asking that seriously, how do you personally decide?

Yorick, my point was that I don't believe there to be such a thing as 'health', whether it be bodily or spiritual. There are just different states of existance. Without the hypothetical (and I daresay illusory) ideal against which to compare one's physical state, there can be no degradation or improvement. Just alteration of form. I think that body is constantly in flux, with proteins entering and leaving and cells birthing and cells dying. And in turn, the individual body forms merely a smaller 'protein' within a larger ecosystem, which is also in constant flux. Thus, this constant flow, this constant metamorphosis, is not conducive to a notion of 'the ideal' or 'health'. Nor is it conducive, in my opinion, to the idea of 'life' and 'death' as polar opposites....

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Also, to Yorick and Chewbacca, I assume your faiths involve the interaction of incorporeal entities with 'physical' bodies? Does being 'possessed' or 'ridden' by the spirit/daemon involve a suspension of 'rational' thought in your opinion? In which case, if brain damage also results in such irrationality, can any distinction be drawn between brain damamge spiritual transcendance?

Why would communication with a discorporate personality necessitate the suspension of rational thought. 2+2 still equals four whether I am talking to myself or an individual on an unseen level of existence. Of course one could take the thought of hard rationality and conclude that the very act of communication with an discorporate personality is itself irrational due to the fact that science has yet to prove that people can exist beyond the body.

I am neutral on the subject of channeling external intelligences. I am more concerned with communicating with the inner aspects of myself that are mostly hidden and distinct from the everyday rational conscious mind. This does not inhibit rational thought. I would say it is the other way around actually.

Chewie, where you say you treat schizophrenia as schizophrenia until it is evident that it is not, how do you make the distinction between the two? I'm asking that seriously, how do you personally decide? [

Well in my case, the "voices" in my head "explained" to me what was happening. Or in other words I recieved guidance from on the inside in the form of words, visions and dreams. I also actively seek spiritual growth and having episodic expiriences similiar to Schizophrenia on this path is a well documented phenomenon from across time and cultures. Oh, I also asked other people more knowledgable and expirienced than me in the realm of Mysticism/Shamanism. There is a structure and purpose underlying expiriences like mine that greatly differs from schiztophrenic delusions.

A therapist with an understanding of this new DSM IV classification might recognize the aspects of evolving consciousness. By the same token I already touched upon the potential for misdiagnosis due to a therapist's sympathy towards these spiritual paths.