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View Poll Results: Is Teaching Enviromentalism "indoctrination"?
Yes 8 38.10%
No 10 47.62%
Other- Please Explain 3 14.29%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-09-2009, 04:08 PM   #31
Chewbacca
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

Quote:
Mankind is responsible for the global warming epidemic? No. (an objective investigation of the data does not support this claim).
LOL, now that's the kind of big bold claim which gives birth to skepticism.

Who or what is the objective entity which conducted this investigation and what data was examined?
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:15 PM   #32
Felix The Assassin
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood View Post
Personally, I'm just a visitor here. This is The Creators planet and frankly, if someone were visiting, or staying at mt place, I wouldn't want them to mess it all up.

I see my neighbours put the garbage out and there are no blue recycle bags. It's really not hard to put something in a blue bag, instead of a black one.

I find that when the garbage is picked up every other week (recycle is weekly) I only have about 2-3 of the small white kitchen garbage bags to throw away. All the rest is recycle stuff.
There is no creator, science will teach you how the planet (itself) evolved. You must understand "Earth Science" and allow other thoughts or "indoctrinations" to take the back burner while in studies.
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:46 PM   #33
Cerek
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

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Originally Posted by SecretMaster View Post
The reason for teaching evolution in school, as I understand it, is that it is because it is a huge part in the foundation of biology (along with cell theory). It isn't because there is some huge movement to dethrone the belief in god. Evolution is taught in schools because it is a cornerstone of biology. And we teach biology in schools because it helps us better understand this world. So many "advancements" today come from this field; medicines, better crop yields, vaccines, etc. Biology is a fundemental science and Darwin's work played a huge role in accelerating it. That is why it is taught. To be quite frank, when creation theory is up to parity in terms of tangible benefits and understanding the world around us, then I'll accept it being taught in public schools.
Teaching evolution within a species is perfectly fine. Teaching evolution as the origin of a species crosses into the area of hypothesis rather than proven fact. The "fact" is that, despite this hypothesis, biology has not been able to reproduce the creation of an organic organism from inorganic materials, nor has it been able to provide an unbroken link from organic to inorganic material.

We know that isn't going to really happen. Biologists will continue lecturing that, even though they can't state with certainty how life actually began, they can state with certainty that it wasn't through Divine Creation.

The hypocritical nature of their presentation will slip by many (We may not be completely right, but we know these other guys are completely wrong). This is an example of acceptable indoctrination.
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:53 PM   #34
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

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Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
LOL, now that's the kind of big bold claim which gives birth to skepticism.

Who or what is the objective entity which conducted this investigation and what data was examined?
Magik has provided several links and examples of articles that contradict the alarmists science of "global warming" (many of which were posted on the "other" forum that shall not be named).

Even SecretMaster concedes that the real scientists doing real research on the issue may be not be right. But, that's not what you hear on the news and from the media. To listen to them is to believe that global warming (and man's responsibility for causing it) are foregone conclusions (much the same as evolution is presented as a foregone conclusion, even though there is evidence that contradicts it as well).

The fact is that many classes - especially in science - tend to lead student towards conclusions the teachers want them to believe rather than encouraging them to question everything and decide for themselves.
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:38 PM   #35
Seraph
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

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Originally Posted by Cerek View Post
The "fact" is that, despite this hypothesis, biology has not been able to reproduce the creation of an organic organism from inorganic materials, nor has it been able to provide an unbroken link from organic to inorganic material.
There have been numerous experiments that provide a link from inorganic materials to organic matierials. The two of the top of my head are:
The Muller experiment in the 50's that showed the creation of amino acids from ammonia, methane, hydrogen and water.
Oro's work in the early 60's which produced amino acids, and a nucleotide base from an aqueous mixture of hydrogen cyanide and ammonia.
Wikipedia has a nice overview of some of these experiments.

There's also the fact that there are metorites out there full of organic compounds. The Murchison meteorite as an example of this.
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Old 02-09-2009, 08:57 PM   #36
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

Organic does not organism make.
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:06 PM   #37
Felix The Assassin
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

Lest we forget Phoenix!

It would be cool to still be alive when something more tuns up!

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MR...panel_001.html
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Jesus died for our sins, and American Soldiers died for our freedom.




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Old 02-09-2009, 11:07 PM   #38
SecretMaster
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

Quote:
Teaching evolution within a species is perfectly fine. Teaching evolution as the origin of a species crosses into the area of hypothesis rather than proven fact. The "fact" is that, despite this hypothesis, biology has not been able to reproduce the creation of an organic organism from inorganic materials, nor has it been able to provide an unbroken link from organic to inorganic material.
I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching that organisms evolved and developed from other organisms. The fact of the matter is, we have a pretty good idea of the evolution of cells and organisms. Of course there are holes and unknown factors, but there is a connected line that can trace ourselves back. I do think it will be mighty hard, if not impossible to pinpoint when exactly life started and how.

But as far as the development of life, sure there is a good understanding of things. We can trace ourselves all the way back to the eukarya domain. Where eukarya, archae and bacteria developed out of is anyones guess. But just because we cannot pinpoint or prove the beginning doesn't mean it should be dismissed. Again, so much understanding of the world comes from this.

I always find it interesting that the religious always sit there and exclaim "but they are hypothesis! you cannot prove them and thus you are wrong!" meanwhile their explanation has done so very little to contribute to the realm of knowledge, and quite frankly their explanation is much more unproven and unsubstantiated than what current science has to offer.

Quote:
Magik has provided several links and examples of articles that contradict the alarmists science of "global warming" (many of which were posted on the "other" forum that shall not be named).

Even SecretMaster concedes that the real scientists doing real research on the issue may be not be right. But, that's not what you hear on the news and from the media. To listen to them is to believe that global warming (and man's responsibility for causing it) are foregone conclusions (much the same as evolution is presented as a foregone conclusion, even though there is evidence that contradicts it as well).
I would like to see links to such articles. If they are the ones I am thinking of, I can address those to the best of my ability.

And I'm going to further enforce what I said earlier. Is global warming being exaggerated and being played the alarmist card by the media? Absolutely. The biggest thing the scientific community can benefit from right now is people who can properly communicate to the general public as to what their research is finding and what it means. There is a lot of resentment towards the media which has made a mockery out of a serious issue. Prophetic and catastrophic claims only harm what is a genuine problem.

There is a good collection of data to suggest that humans are influencing the climate (note! not every place will see increases in temperature!). For every widely publicized article that claims to refute and dismiss this idea (often subject to sensationalism I might add), you can find another that says the exact opposite. In fact, I'd wager there are more publications supporting the current beliefs, not trying to dismiss them.

Quote:
Organic does not organism make.
I don't even know what that means. Clarification please?
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:48 AM   #39
JrKASperov
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMaster View Post
I always find it interesting that the religious always sit there and exclaim "but they are hypothesis! you cannot prove them and thus you are wrong!" meanwhile their explanation has done so very little to contribute to the realm of knowledge, and quite frankly their explanation is much more unproven and unsubstantiated than what current science has to offer.
Let me add my two cents here, as this is an area I've done some research in. There is one conclusion that stands out: science is logically incapable of proving anything in the domain of the unobservable (ie. with indirect evidence). Evolution itself has some fairly observable results (which have been verified as far as I know) but the method itself is unobservable. Now, when we apply evolution to the past, and even millions of years into the past, we come into a realm of the 'double' unobservable, since we have not been millions of years into the past. So: to say that science has proven anything of the kind 'evolution has been proven to be the truth' is to err, not only as an atheist but also as a scientist.

That said, religious arguments usually fail to acknowledge the fact that these kind of theoretical constructions are in fact very useful, as well as beautifully constructed, which is to say that it might be true. After all, as we weren't there at creation, we don't know what the mechanisms of it really are. These arguments should also acknowledge, as you rightly point out, that they do not have the goal to provide a scientific alternative. Evolution is accepted because it adheres to certain (admittedly vague) scientific values, while creationism hasn't been found to adhere to them (perhaps a better constructed version could). Thus, evolution does provide a certain type of knowledge (a theoretical framework to explain observable phenomena) which creationism does not (it uses premises to support a premise).

So, in conclusion: both parties of the eternal debate should realise that in truth they really don't, and in fact cannot know what is 'the truth' in these matters.
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:55 PM   #40
pritchke
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Default Re: Teaching enviromentalism "indoctrination"?

I don't really like the term Global Warming. As I don't believe all areas are feeling the this warming that people are talking about. Some places are actually breaking records for how cold some days are. Some places are getting record snowfalls so global warming is a myth. But lets talk about Climate Change the weather can be pretty messed up at times. I think any one living in the Gulf of Mexico area would say that they are getting an unusual amount of hurricanes. People in Newfoundland have occasionally had to climb out there window to shovel snow, the bonus is you get to open the door and stick your beers in the snow and ice. Is man somewhat responsible, well I am sure we help it along slightly. Are we going to be living in temperatures the same as when the dinosaurs and 45 foot snakes at over 2000lbs roamed the earth anytime soon. Well most likely not. Should we try and cut back on our admissions and waste were possible. Well this is a no brainer if you agree if it is affecting climate change or not. People with breathing problems will appreciate it if the air is cleaner, I like fresh air too. If we keep throwing out all our stuff and not recycling we will eventually use up our space. I only get about 1 bag of garbage/week with recycling and we use disposable diapers. The fuzzybuns diapers were about $20/diaper so seemed like quite a bit of money up front but well worth the investment as the adjustable size and reusability saved a bundle over the course of a year. I most likely would have spent twice as much or more on diapers without disposable ones. I am not going to give up air conditioning or heating but can I adjust the temperature within 1degree I will save an extra 7% electricity. Still comfortable. I can turn off lights and my computer monitor when I am not using them, and I can switch to energy efficient bulbs, etc. This is just to name a few and everyone can do there bit. For recycling we don't have curbside pickup for that but I take all my cans, papers, cardboard, milk containers, glass to the big green bins everytime I need to pick up groceries. Going to pick up groceries and takeing the recycling was just a habit to get into and doesn't take up much time. Oh and I do take public transit as much as possible despite my dislike for being jammed on there next to all you guys. I am sure the feeling is mutual LOL.

Last edited by pritchke; 02-10-2009 at 03:00 PM.
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