The "gay" high school opens with hateful protests

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Grendal: No this kid who cannot cope will not graduate at all. He will wind up jumping off a bridge. Here in Vancouver in the last 5 years we have had a 14 year old "gay" kid jump off one of our bridges due to bullying. We have had a 9 year old girl hang herself in her bedroom and in her suicide note she blames the bullies at school. And over on Vancouver Island we had Reena Virk (15 I think) get beat up and left face down in the ocean at lunch time. Beat up I might add by what, 3 or 4 other 15 to 17 year old kids? And yes she was dead when they found her. Bullies, schools, kids, and our general outlook on other folks has seriously changed in the last 40 years. You can hope and wish all you like that things would be the way they were "back in the day" but they are not and they wont ever be again. You cannot even think that yesteryears values and or rules are remotely applicable today. Its a WAY more violent society we live in today and if we have to segregate our kids so they can get that extra 3 or 4 years of life experience and maturity I say segregate away! it might give them a fighting chance to make a go of life.

Again, not to say you have no point here, but we had Columbine. That doesn't mean every goth misfit miscreant who listens to Marilyn Manson should be going to some special "God is in the TV" School, does it?

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Again, not to say you have no point here, but we had Columbine. That doesn't mean every goth misfit miscreant who listens to Marilyn Manson should be going to some special "God is in the TV" School, does it?

LOL @ the "God is in the TV" School.

My lasts days in high school in 1990 were at an alternative school in the Denver Public School system. It was full of Goths, Punks, Hippies, and other non-violent "misfits" that lowered the regular school's test score averages by recieving poor marks and/or having attendance problems. I had straight A's but attendance problems. ( I missed 11 days in the previous semester, one more than the limit) edit- of course the semester before I had ridiculous attendance problems due to personal issues- that is really what they nailed me for)

This school had Jr high desks and the "teachers" were absent more than we were. Of course they expected this school to have a high drop out rate, so nobody cared if we went or not. But so long as it protected the statistics of the other schools in the district it served its purpose. Out of 300 senior students that year, 30 graduated. 270 dropped out. No one made it back into regular school through the appeal process. The place actually made me miss the prison-like 'Bama school system.

Odd how only the kids that dressed funny or didnt fit the preppy mold were sent to this school, when plenty of our "square" looking friends who skipped and failed as much as we did were allowed to stay on in the regular school.

Well atleast they didnt send us the the gang-banger alt-school, it would have been "freak genocide" if that were the case. For once they would have had gang unity, at least until the bangers finished all us "faggy weirdos" off.

I wonder if the system is still rigged over in Mile High land? anyway off topic, but your God is in the TV comment totally reminded me of that "school".

[ 09-11-2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Out of 300 senior students that year, 30 graduated. 270 dropped out. No one made it back into regular school through the appeal process.

[img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] Wait, let me repeat. [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Grendal: No this kid who cannot cope will not graduate at all. He will wind up jumping off a bridge. Here in Vancouver in the last 5 years we have had a 14 year old "gay" kid jump off one of our bridges due to bullying. We have had a 9 year old girl hang herself in her bedroom and in her suicide note she blames the bullies at school. And over on Vancouver Island we had Reena Virk (15 I think) get beat up and left face down in the ocean at lunch time. Beat up I might add by what, 3 or 4 other 15 to 17 year old kids? And yes she was dead when they found her. Bullies, schools, kids, and our general outlook on other folks has seriously changed in the last 40 years. You can hope and wish all you like that things would be the way they were "back in the day" but they are not and they wont ever be again. You cannot even think that yesteryears values and or rules are remotely applicable today. Its a WAY more violent society we live in today and if we have to segregate our kids so they can get that extra 3 or 4 years of life experience and maturity I say segregate away! it might give them a fighting chance to make a go of life.

Seems to me, he had a chance to make a go of life. Kids commit suicide, it's a fact of life. They don't have to be gay to do it. We try to help, but in the end, you can only do so much. If one cannot deal with reality...one is doomed. Sounds cold and uncaring, but Im not. Just being realistic. Not everyone is going to survive nor should they. If we all did..then we wouldn't have room for anything else on the planet.

As for kids comitting suicide...puberty has that affect sometimes. Your brain chemistry is all wonked out and if you can't fight your way through it....You got two choices live or die. Everyone faces challenges, I still say Being gay is no more a challenge than any other oddity.

Chewie, they aren't publicizing the fact that that school is for everyone. All you see in the news and headlines is that it is for gays and lesbians and possibly for bi-sexuals.

I was wrong in something I posted to Rokenn though. Even though we were well segregated and distanced from the girls, you could tell who liked them and who didn't....so maybe it isn't possible to keep sexuality completely subverted, but you can make damn sure it isn't the MAJOR focus of a childs life. It's up to parents and since no one wants churches or religions setting the moral base for what is acceptable and what is not. You end up with no base at all.

These kids will go to school and avoid one set of problems but they won't avoid all the problems that face them in life and they won't always be sheltered. So says the skinny new kid who survived many new schools and many new sets of bullies to go on and live a productive and happy life.

By the way, more kids are killed in car and drug and drinking accidents than commit suicide because they got picked on...perhaps we need to think of ways to fix that problem too....perhaps safe drinking zones in the city? Free Needle exchange and dosage monitors provided at government expense? [img]smile.gif[/img] I know Canada is a pioneer for the way life "should be" [img]smile.gif[/img]


I also know you guys are going to be pissed off at me because I disagree with you. Well Im sorry for that. Nothing I said was said for the sole purpose of making you angry. It was said because it is what I believe.

[Grendal]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Grendal: No this kid who cannot cope will not graduate at all. He will wind up jumping off a bridge. Here in Vancouver in the last 5 years we have had a 14 year old "gay" kid jump off one of our bridges due to bullying. We have had a 9 year old girl hang herself in her bedroom and in her suicide note she blames the bullies at school. And over on Vancouver Island we had Reena Virk (15 I think) get beat up and left face down in the ocean at lunch time. Beat up I might add by what, 3 or 4 other 15 to 17 year old kids? And yes she was dead when they found her. Bullies, schools, kids, and our general outlook on other folks has seriously changed in the last 40 years. You can hope and wish all you like that things would be the way they were "back in the day" but they are not and they wont ever be again. You cannot even think that yesteryears values and or rules are remotely applicable today. Its a WAY more violent society we live in today and if we have to segregate our kids so they can get that extra 3 or 4 years of life experience and maturity I say segregate away! it might give them a fighting chance to make a go of life.

Again, not to say you have no point here, but we had Columbine. That doesn't mean every goth misfit miscreant who listens to Marilyn Manson should be going to some special "God is in the TV" School, does it? [/QUOTE]Im not saying that at all TL. Are you saying that having your 9 yr old daughter swinging by the neck in her bedroom while you think shes listening to Britney Spears and painting her toenails with pearl blue nail polish is acceptable?
I think I sort of derailed this thread a bit and for that I apologize. Bullying really gets me going. As for the school...I dont think its a bad idea at all. Being gay isnt like being a goth misfit miscreant who listens to Marilyn Manson, (Im 36 BTW and listen to Marilyn Manson) The hatred towards gays is more akin to the hatred towards blacks in the fifties and sixties. All Im saying is that if you are able to give a (gay) kid an extra 2 or 3 years to let his brain mature to a point that he realizes that suicide (or murder)is not the only option then why not do it? Your not sheltering him, hes still going to know hes gay, hes still going to get harassed, but maybe not to the point that he will do something stupid and irreversable. If you have 2 kids that are gay in a school of 1,300 students or you have 100 straight kids in a school of 300 gay kids who do you think will grow up with more self confidence and self worth, not to mention lower bullying and suicide rates.
As for Columbine Im not going jump into your "whos tragedy is worse debate". The three instances I gave and the one you gave and Im sure the ones that every city in the world can make, are symtoms of the exact same problems no matter what borders are beside us.If you cant see that then you are part of the problem.

[ 09-11-2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Grendal ]

[Grendal]

By the way, more kids are killed in car and drug and drinking accidents than commit suicide because they got picked on...perhaps we need to think of ways to fix that problem too....perhaps safe drinking zones in the city? Free Needle exchange and dosage monitors provided at government expense? I know Canada is a pioneer for the way life "should be"


I try not not to get pissed off at nameless face less print on my screen! Trust me not alot of ppl are real happy bout the needle exchange thing here either! Hmmm I think Ill start a new thread about teenage drivers!

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: As far as special treatment goes, Well we give special treatment and special schools to smart kids, "dumb" kids, creative kids, and trouble-making kids. Why not have one for fearful kids?

We have special schools for special kids. Gay kids should not be more special than black kids or handicapped kids. They're a part of society so let them be a part of high school. Starting ghettos at high school is not a smart idea.

also: smart, dumb, creative, trouble-making kids receive special schooling because they need different education. Fearful kids don't need different education.

I also would rather have my gay/nerdy/fat/otherwise stereotyped kid go to a special school before having him/her beaten up. That doesn't make it right.
There is a clear choice here. STOP the bullies. If they are indeed so troublesome that they drive other kids to suicide they belong in that special troublemaker school where they are taught how to interact correctly and decently with society. If they are just uncomfortable fellows other kids will have to learn dealing with them because in life you often meet uncomfortable people.
Getting your head stuck in a jon is not a life lesson because that will probably never happen to you in social interaction with an adult. And if so he's up for assault charges (as the bully should be in a way adjusted to his age). Being taunted or mocked is something you WILL face sooner or later in life so it's not bad if you get to know it at high school.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Grendal: I dont think its a bad idea at all. Being gay isnt like being a goth misfit miscreant who listens to Marilyn Manson, (Im 36 BTW and listen to Marilyn Manson)

I listen to them too. I have tickets for the Manson concert this month. It won't be my first. Though, this time I'll be smart enough to wear black so I don't stick out so much. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The hatred towards gays is more akin to the hatred towards blacks in the fifties and sixties.

Right, exactly. And after 50 years of segregation, Brown vs. Board of Topeka overturned Plesy vs. Ferguson because "separate is never equal."

All Im saying is that if you are able to give a (gay) kid an extra 2 or 3 years to let his brain mature to a point that he realizes that suicide (or murder)is not the only option then why not do it? Your not sheltering him, hes still going to know hes gay, hes still going to get harassed, but maybe not to the point that he will do something stupid and irreversable.

It's not that you're sheltering him/her from being gay. You're sheltering them from their opportunity to learn how to fit in anyway. If this became an at-large policy, you are also sequestering the straight kids -- without exposure to gay kids, can we expect those kids to pop out of high school and go to college to welcome those kids that went to the "fag school" into their sororities and fraternities?

If you have 2 kids that are gay in a school of 1,300 students or you have 100 straight kids in a school of 300 gay kids who do you think will grow up with more self confidence and self worth, not to mention lower bullying and suicide rates.

Well, a few notes. One, gay kids can be bullies too, especially when they are in the majority in the school. Gay does not equal kind/gentle. I know gays who'd bitch-slap you as soon as look at you and lesbians who'd beat your ass in just so they can leave on more male in their wake who will be made fun of for losing a fight to a girl. Two, your percentages may apply to the "out" kids (likely 2/1300 is too low for even that, though), but I'm certain the minority group is larger than that. Nevertheless, my main point is that those 2/1300 may have trouble in high school, but when they hit the mall to waste mom and dad's money after school, they're going to be in the same situation. Except worse: rather than "those losers everyone ignores at school" they'll be "those fa*s from the fa**oty fa* farm -- let's beat their asses-- yar." Seriously, in any one town/community, these people will have to integrate into the same larger group of peers whether they do it at school or outside of school.

As for Columbine Im not going jump into your "whos tragedy is worse debate".

I didn't mean to imply either tragedy was worse. Assuming all tragedies that ever occured in high schools the world over are equal, my point still holds.

[ 09-11-2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: Out of 300 senior students that year, 30 graduated. 270 dropped out. No one made it back into regular school through the appeal process.

[img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] Wait, let me repeat. [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Well maybe I need to clarify, most people I know dropped out to get their GED. The school didnt really have "classes" like a normal school and by graduating you only got a GED anyway. Just showing up and sitting in a big room everyday was really pointless if you could go over to the city college, plop down 30 bucks, and just take the GED test. My friend "graduated" because his parents threatened to disown him if he didn't go everyday. Thats why I know only 30 people graduated cause I went to the ceremony to show support for him.
I quit on day three or so.

Also no one I knew made it back into regular school, of course the place was like a social club for freaks so I knew alot of people who ended up there before and after I my short stay.


BTW I pulled the 300/270 figure out of my ass, but it is a good guestimation based on the observations of my friend who stuck it out and from the many people I knew socially who ended up there. The place was like a revolving door. Every week or so a few new "students" would show up and be gone again in a matter of days.

God that place was such a joke of a school!

Okay sorry needed to clarify as well as rant some more. We can get back to our regularly scheduled topic now! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Faceman: We have special schools for special kids. Gay kids should not be more special than black kids or handicapped kids. They're a part of society so let them be a part of high school. Starting ghettos at high school is not a smart idea. also: smart, dumb, creative, trouble-making kids receive special schooling because they need different education. Fearful kids don't need different education.

No but a different enviroment perhaps?

I also would rather have my gay/nerdy/fat/otherwise stereotyped kid go to a special school before having him/her beaten up. That doesn't make it right.

I agree, the school is a neccessary evil IMO until whatever changes in the climate of the other schools that allow for such hateful bigotry to exist in the first place.

There is a clear choice here. STOP the bullies. If they are indeed so troublesome that they drive other kids to suicide they belong in that special troublemaker school where they are taught how to interact correctly and decently with society. If they are just uncomfortable fellows other kids will have to learn dealing with them because in life you often meet uncomfortable people.

I agree here as well, the hateful and possibly violent bigots need to be "straightened out" (enjoy the irony and/or the pun [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) This I would prefer over the seperate safe school.

Getting your head stuck in a jon is not a life lesson because that will probably never happen to you in social interaction with an adult. And if so he's up for assault charges (as the bully should be in a way adjusted to his age). Being taunted or mocked is something you WILL face sooner or later in life so it's not bad if you get to know it at high school.

Well an occassion heckler is not the same as reoccuring harrassment or violence.
Its matter of discerning the "harmless" jerks from the real bad apples. I would be okay teaching my potential gay kid that "sticks and stones will break your bones but words can never hurt you" because thats an important lesson IMO. They shouldn't have to tolerate the actual stick and stones or the plausible threat of them either.