does anyone else have...

Raistlin Majere · 06-13-2003, 10:59 AM

...messed up thac0 tables? all my characters have 20 in thac0, fighters and mages alike, regardless of what weapon they use or whether or not they have profiency points in the weapon or not. anyone know what would fix this?

Micah Foehammer · 06-13-2003, 11:36 AM

Sounds like corrupted files. What level are your characters? Did you use Dalekeeper by any chance to edit them?

PS: You should probably delete the extra post on this topic. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-13-2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Micah Foehammer ]

Raistlin Majere · 06-13-2003, 01:05 PM

deleted the extra post. once again a result of a chain of...mess-ups

i only used dale keeper on one character(bard) to decrease constitution and give wisdom(lore). it seems that all of the characters had 20 at the start, but the thac0 does decrease with magical weapons/level. i remember having this before as well, and a friend had it too...maybe its supposed to be like that? wouldnt make much sence though...

Micah Foehammer · 06-13-2003, 01:32 PM

All starting level 1 characters DO have thacos of 20 (remember that IWD uses the older 2nd edition rules), and they SHOULD decrease at different rates depending on class as you gain levels. Magical weapons and proficiencies will also reduce thaco.

If you have higher level characters and are STILL seeing thacos of 20, then something is DEFINITELY wrong. I've NEVER heard of this problem occuring before. Make sure you have the proper patch installed and then as a last resort try uninstalling and reinstalling the game (make sure you back up your saved games and characters).

Raistlin Majere · 06-13-2003, 02:57 PM

ok, im not too familiar with the older 2nd edition rules, so ill just post all my characters and the attributes that should effect thaco:

Fighter/Cleric 2/3
S:16
D:16
two profiency points in maces wielding a high quality mace(+1 thaco) and has 19 thaco and 1½ APR

Paladin level 3
S:18/74
D:17
2 prof. points in large swords wielding a finest quality long sword(+2 thaco) with 18 thaco and 1½ APR

Druid level 3
S:14
D:16
1 prof. point in clubs wielding a regular club and has 20 thaco and 1 APR

Mage/Thief level 2/3
S:17
D:19
1 prof. point in daggers wielding Apsel's Dagger(+1 thaco) and has 19 thaco and 1 APR

Bard level 4
S:12
D:17
1 prof. point in axes wielding a regular axe and has 19 thaco and 1 APR

Abjurer level 3
S:14
D:17
1 prof. point in Q-staffs wielding a regular Q-staff and has 20 thaco and 1 APR

im not sure if thats correct, but its not with bg1 rules

Micah Foehammer · 06-13-2003, 03:13 PM

Those look right to me. [img]smile.gif[/img] Don't think you have a problem.

Thaco for fighters, rangers and paladins drops by a point per level if single class. For everyone else its slower, with pure mages being the slowest to reduce their thaco.

Here's how THACO in 2E works:

Take your oppenents armor class and subtract it from your thaco. Now roll a d20 to see if you hit. If your die roll is greater than the adjusted thaco you hit, otherwise you miss. Say you have a fighter with a thaco of 18. He's facing a orc with an ac of 6 (Just for example). Subtract 6 from 18 and you get 12. You need to roll a 12 or better on a d20 to hit him. If you opponent has a NEGATIVE AC (say -3), the adjust thaco is 20 - (-3) = 23! Unless you have magically enchanted weapons he can't be hit! In 2E, a lower THACO is better.

BAB in 3rd edition is MUCH simpler. Take your Base Attack Bonus, add your BAB adjustments, roll a d20 and add to the adjusted BAB. If its less than the opponents AC you miss. In 3E a higher BAB is better.

[ 06-13-2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Micah Foehammer ]

Raistlin Majere · 06-13-2003, 03:43 PM

right, i guess ill take your word for it. just have to say, IWD rules are weird! wait a minute...did you mean with "remember that IWD uses the older 2nd edition rules" that it uses 2nd edition rules instead of 3rd, or that theres some older set of 2nd edition rules that IWD uses? cause i tested with bg1 by making an identical paladin in bg1 wielding a regular long sword and he had 15 thaco. thus either IWD has a messed up thaco progression or it uses somehow different rules.

btw, i have the patch from the interplay website

Micah Foehammer · 06-13-2003, 04:08 PM

Older 2nd edition rules meant older than 3rd edition and not an older version of 2nd edition.

Check your to hit rolls when you are playing JUST to make sure that the weapon adjustments are being factored in. That's the true test - some of the character records do NOT properly show THACO adjustments.

Raistlin Majere · 06-13-2003, 04:16 PM

yeah, i guess that could be it. ill test it right away...

Raistlin Majere · 06-14-2003, 10:00 AM

im not quite sure whether it shows the thaco correctly or not, but it doesnt matter that much i suppose. thanks for your help, micah.

btw, would anyone happen to remember what the bards song does? i believe it brings a +1 to attack rolls and saving throws(and luck?) in bg1, does it do the same in IWD? does it get better in higher levels?

06-13-2003, 10:59 AM	#1
Raistlin Majere Ra Join Date: March 26, 2002 Location: Finland Age: 36 Posts: 2,323	...messed up thac0 tables? all my characters have 20 in thac0, fighters and mages alike, regardless of what weapon they use or whether or not they have profiency points in the weapon or not. anyone know what would fix this? __________________ If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

06-13-2003, 11:36 AM	#2
Micah Foehammer Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 3,253	Sounds like corrupted files. What level are your characters? Did you use Dalekeeper by any chance to edit them? PS: You should probably delete the extra post on this topic. [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 06-13-2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Micah Foehammer ] __________________ “Every tavern’s an opportunity, I say.”

06-13-2003, 01:05 PM	#3
Raistlin Majere Ra Join Date: March 26, 2002 Location: Finland Age: 36 Posts: 2,323	deleted the extra post. once again a result of a chain of...mess-ups i only used dale keeper on one character(bard) to decrease constitution and give wisdom(lore). it seems that all of the characters had 20 at the start, but the thac0 does decrease with magical weapons/level. i remember having this before as well, and a friend had it too...maybe its supposed to be like that? wouldnt make much sence though... __________________ If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

06-13-2003, 01:32 PM	#4
Micah Foehammer Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 3,253	All starting level 1 characters DO have thacos of 20 (remember that IWD uses the older 2nd edition rules), and they SHOULD decrease at different rates depending on class as you gain levels. Magical weapons and proficiencies will also reduce thaco. If you have higher level characters and are STILL seeing thacos of 20, then something is DEFINITELY wrong. I've NEVER heard of this problem occuring before. Make sure you have the proper patch installed and then as a last resort try uninstalling and reinstalling the game (make sure you back up your saved games and characters). __________________ “Every tavern’s an opportunity, I say.”

06-13-2003, 02:57 PM	#5
Raistlin Majere Ra Join Date: March 26, 2002 Location: Finland Age: 36 Posts: 2,323	ok, im not too familiar with the older 2nd edition rules, so ill just post all my characters and the attributes that should effect thaco: Fighter/Cleric 2/3 S:16 D:16 two profiency points in maces wielding a high quality mace(+1 thaco) and has 19 thaco and 1½ APR Paladin level 3 S:18/74 D:17 2 prof. points in large swords wielding a finest quality long sword(+2 thaco) with 18 thaco and 1½ APR Druid level 3 S:14 D:16 1 prof. point in clubs wielding a regular club and has 20 thaco and 1 APR Mage/Thief level 2/3 S:17 D:19 1 prof. point in daggers wielding Apsel's Dagger(+1 thaco) and has 19 thaco and 1 APR Bard level 4 S:12 D:17 1 prof. point in axes wielding a regular axe and has 19 thaco and 1 APR Abjurer level 3 S:14 D:17 1 prof. point in Q-staffs wielding a regular Q-staff and has 20 thaco and 1 APR im not sure if thats correct, but its not with bg1 rules __________________ If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

06-13-2003, 03:13 PM	#6
Micah Foehammer Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 3,253	Those look right to me. [img]smile.gif[/img] Don't think you have a problem. Thaco for fighters, rangers and paladins drops by a point per level if single class. For everyone else its slower, with pure mages being the slowest to reduce their thaco. Here's how THACO in 2E works: Take your oppenents armor class and subtract it from your thaco. Now roll a d20 to see if you hit. If your die roll is greater than the adjusted thaco you hit, otherwise you miss. Say you have a fighter with a thaco of 18. He's facing a orc with an ac of 6 (Just for example). Subtract 6 from 18 and you get 12. You need to roll a 12 or better on a d20 to hit him. If you opponent has a NEGATIVE AC (say -3), the adjust thaco is 20 - (-3) = 23! Unless you have magically enchanted weapons he can't be hit! In 2E, a lower THACO is better. BAB in 3rd edition is MUCH simpler. Take your Base Attack Bonus, add your BAB adjustments, roll a d20 and add to the adjusted BAB. If its less than the opponents AC you miss. In 3E a higher BAB is better. [ 06-13-2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Micah Foehammer ] __________________ “Every tavern’s an opportunity, I say.”

06-13-2003, 03:43 PM	#7
Raistlin Majere Ra Join Date: March 26, 2002 Location: Finland Age: 36 Posts: 2,323	right, i guess ill take your word for it. just have to say, IWD rules are weird! wait a minute...did you mean with "remember that IWD uses the older 2nd edition rules" that it uses 2nd edition rules instead of 3rd, or that theres some older set of 2nd edition rules that IWD uses? cause i tested with bg1 by making an identical paladin in bg1 wielding a regular long sword and he had 15 thaco. thus either IWD has a messed up thaco progression or it uses somehow different rules. btw, i have the patch from the interplay website __________________ If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

06-13-2003, 04:08 PM	#8
Micah Foehammer Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 3,253	Older 2nd edition rules meant older than 3rd edition and not an older version of 2nd edition. Check your to hit rolls when you are playing JUST to make sure that the weapon adjustments are being factored in. That's the true test - some of the character records do NOT properly show THACO adjustments. __________________ “Every tavern’s an opportunity, I say.”

06-13-2003, 04:16 PM	#9
Raistlin Majere Ra Join Date: March 26, 2002 Location: Finland Age: 36 Posts: 2,323	yeah, i guess that could be it. ill test it right away... __________________ If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

06-14-2003, 10:00 AM	#10
Raistlin Majere Ra Join Date: March 26, 2002 Location: Finland Age: 36 Posts: 2,323	im not quite sure whether it shows the thaco correctly or not, but it doesnt matter that much i suppose. thanks for your help, micah. btw, would anyone happen to remember what the bards song does? i believe it brings a +1 to attack rolls and saving throws(and luck?) in bg1, does it do the same in IWD? does it get better in higher levels? __________________ If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst forth at once in the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

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