Judge bans suicide show

[Yorick]

"Do you own the off-switch"

Good point.

To those that believe they solely own their own lives, I would ask how they brought themselves into this world and what they did to earn their life.

I would point out that we owe our very existence to other people. Other peoples actions brought us into the world, and enabled our survival and equipped us with skills to survive. In a primal nuclear society, the person should by rights stay alive to take care of those that took care of them. Returning the favour.

But we have lost that primal need... or have we?

If you really lose the will to live, you will die. People die of a broken heart. Suicide is an override switch to drastically end pain. It is not evidence of a loss of the will to live.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Skunk: You can not be 'pain-free' and self-aware at the same time with many, many terminial illnesses - I'm trying to square how its dignified to be on such high a dosage of painkillers that a patient has trouble remembering their own name when they are conscious. I really find it hard to believe that anyone who finds themself requiring the assistance of another to fulfill their own lavatory requirements as 'dignified'. Walk up and down any cancer ward and you'll find all sorts of examples of such dignified living. I think that you would have to see euthanasia in action and speak to both the patient and the relatives concerned before making your mind up on this - unless of course, you are ill-disposed to the idea as result of religion.

I have required assistance to use a lavatory. I have lain on a table, naked, lying in a pool of my own shit and blood in a hospital. I have fallen asleep and woken up in my own vomit in a hospital. I have needed assistance to walk down a hall, shower, shit, eat. All in hosptial.

I have lain for hours on your so derided mind numbing morphine, in your so derided 'vegetative state'.

I have screamed for hours due to burning pain without painkillers in hospital. I have also been unable to breathe due to severe knifelike pain in my lungs. I have felt the relief of pathadine and morphine. Felt numbing lack of care for anything due to blood loss.

I have been tested, and tested and tested. Nuclear medicine, berium meals, cat scans, blood test after blood test, had my shit tested, urine tested, x-ray after x-ray.

During my times in hospital I have spoken to a man in hosptial without a functioning stomach, who was in hospital for over a year. I've watched my Great Grandfather lose his mental faculties and die at age 99; watched my paternal grandfather lose his faculties and dignity dying of cancer in a nursing home; seen my own father lie in a coma for three months, visited my aunt in a mental institution due to severe brain damage, and yet seen the art she's created and the love she has had for my sister.

I've also seen my uncle die due to cancer, and yet spend the last year of his life, coming to know Jesus and connecting with my father (his brother) in a way they never did before.

Life.

Priorities shift when you lose the ability to walk on your own. When you are unable to stand up. What life is, the definition of life can shift radically. I've been one of these relatives you've asked me to consult. I've experienced the lack of dignity you seem to abhor and fear. I certainly did not enjoy morphine, but it was better than being dead. It was still life. I got off it as soon as I was able, but it was still preferable to not existing. I was fed intravenously, unable to swallow even water, but I had life. I may not have had any dignity, but I had life.

Life is such a gift, and each succeeding moment an undeserved miracle I treasure. To throw away that gift... would be the highest insult to those that have loved me, to those that brought me into the world, to my God who gave me the spark of life. I owe it to those that know me to stay alive. OWE it. I owe it to those that have invested time in me, to perpetuate my own existence. My life is not my own. My gifts as a musician are not my own. If they bring others enjoyment, I must stay alive and keep creating so that their life is enhanced.

That is my perspective. It has helped keep me alive during my own darkness.

Finding reason to live is one of the most vital things we can do.

[ 10-22-2003, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Yorick: To those that believe they solely own their own lives, I would ask how they brought themselves into this world and what they did to earn their life.

Another foray into into the realm of belief to answer this question....

Soul power!!! Merely existing "earned" me this life. I owe my very existence to the creative yearning of the universe. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

This is what gets me.

I present an opinion about Islam. Because it differs from Skunks, he assumes I know nothing of Islam or the Qu'ran, when the opposite was the case. My opinions were a result of my extensive research and reading for myself, the writings concerned.

Now in this thread, again, because I presented an opinion Skunk disagreed with, he presumes I needed to speak with cancer sufferes BEFORE making up my mind?

I do not present strong opinions without reason. What I have learned, the values I now hold are hard won. I am a Christian BECAUSE of difficult experiences, not because I am naive and sheltered. I have extensively tested my faith, which is why I am SO ASSURED that what I believe is true. I hold my opinions about suicide precisely because I have faced those very feelings down. I hold firm opinions on euthenasia precisely because of my experience with cancer patients. To the above post I could have added the scores of people I've known in the various churches my father was a minister of.

I've had so many dear old women and men I've loved as a child pass on. So many battle and lose to cancer. Life is so precious. As a child, one of the most pronounced experiences I had was to go to a luncheon for deaf people in my fathers area of ministry. Amongst the deaf people there was an old man who was both blind and deaf.

I was probably only 12 or so, but I had learned enough sign language to be able to speak with him, by making those signs on his palm. So he could feel the images. That was his communication.

When he was a small boy, he had a bookshelf fall on his head, which had damaged his brain so he lost his sight and hearing.

As you can imagine, his plight haunted the young and sensative me, and even as I write this, tears are welling up in my eyes.

He lived his life to an old age without sight and sound.

Thus at an early age, I gained appreciation for these faculties, but also appreciated that life could still be enjoyed even when not all is perfect in us. When things go awry. I later read Joni Ericsson-Tadas biography of a quadraplegic who came to know Jesus after a horrible diving accident, and ended up with a recording and painting career as well as touring, preaching and singing from her wheelchair. She painted by putting brushes in her mouth.

I went and saw a concert of hers. She was well known in the Christian community. An inspiring woman of God.

We had in our congregation a security guard who had been shot in the back, and lived as a paraplegic from then on. We knew him before and after. We also had couples where one would completely lose mental faculties. But we also had a man healed of cancer. I also knew a woman healed of blindness in one eye, and a friend of mine healed of chronic back damage.

But anyway....

I cannot do anything but hold strong opinions after the reality I have been shown. I value my life. I always was intent to learn from others experiences, and value what they did without having to lose those things as they did. Even so, a car accident that left me in a neck brace for months, and the numerous times in hospital, as per the above post, reinforced, and revitalised my priorities and opinions. Things like 9/11 and everything in my life I experience as I go perpetuate all this.

I love my God, I love the life he has given me. I am so so thankful to be aware, right now. To be alive right NOW. If I die as soon as this is posted I will be happy to have lived those few extra moments. [img]smile.gif[/img] It's a beautiful thing life. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-22-2003, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: To those that believe they solely own their own lives, I would ask how they brought themselves into this world and what they did to earn their life.

Another foray into into the realm of belief to answer this question....

Soul power!!! Merely existing "earned" me this life. I owe my very existence to the creative yearning of the universe. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]??? I think you're missing the point somewhat. Earn implies previous action. I am also speaking about your physical being, not your soul. A sucicider is not chosing to destroy their soul, but to end their physical existence. As such, my question, is regarding the physical being.

The point being, without the choices and actions of your parents you would not exist in your current physical manifestation. Without others feeding you and providing you with shelter and protection, you would have died within hours out of the womb.

Hmmm, interesting. I believe the actions of previous lives or actions earns one their current physical life. We can't transcend and freely leave this earthly existence as long as we still have something anchoring us back down. yes physical life is precious, but so is death and what happens after. our spirits go on into the next life until we get it right. LOL. Man i know for sure I'm coming back. Earth is a real intense spot and many come here for that experience. I know we are all doing our best. Be brave and smile often from the heart. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Venturing deeper into the realm of personal belief and touching upon metaphysics....

I see the point you are making, Yorick but it doesn't matter from my perspective.

I believe "I" chose, not only my physical manifestation, but "I" also chose my parents as much as they chose me, at a soul level of existence.

Of course the little physical shell of a baby doesn't survive without care, shelter, and protection. That is part of the "deal". I don't owe my parents anything for it, certainly not my continuing physical manifestastion.

My beliefs are why suicide doesn't concern me as much as, say, war or murder. To me, suicide is a choice as much as choosing to live is, no one else takes the life of a suicider.

Of course this is not to say I *totally* advocate suicide, I certain advocate the right to die for the terminally pained, I also advocate the right to live in agony if one chooses. If a person is so sick they cannot take their own life, they deserve the choice to recieve assistance in doing so if they wish.

In the case of suicide caused by psycological/emotional trauma I do believe in free choice here as well, but I do not condone suicide in these cases either. I do not condemn it either as well. What is important is responding to the people who come forth and say "I want to kill myself" Allowing exploration of the thoughts and feelings that are at the root of this desire and so forth. I do consider voluntary discorporation to be a serious and permanent decision. It should be challenged, discussed, considered, and thought out.

Ultimately a person who seriously wants to do it, is going to.

Death is not something I fear or regret. My beleifs, my faith, lends me confidence that I will be with loved ones again. This is why I am not angry at the friends that have passed on because of suicide. I have no anger becasue they did not come to tell me their thoughts and feelings that led to such a decision. I know they did not do it to hurt me. Somehow, someway, they did it for themselves. I may not agree with their decision and I would have tried to talk them out of it if they came to me about it, but now it is done, I would rather just consider that they are free souls, with me now in heart and mind, and we will meet again.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Yorick: To those that believe they solely own their own lives, I would ask how they brought themselves into this world and what they did to earn their life.

Your 'argument' effectively states that you own nothing; for example you can not possibley 'own' a computer - because you did not create the minerals from which it is composed.

As a result, everyone has the right to tell you what to do with it.
Indeed, on that same basis, I am telling you to stop writing posts on your computer - it is my right, as co-owner of your computer.

Originally posted by Yorick: I have required assistance to use a lavatory. I have lain on a table, naked, lying in a pool of my own shit and blood in a hospital. I have fallen asleep and woken up in my own vomit in a hospital. I have needed assistance to walk down a hall, shower, shit, eat. All in hosptial.

But you were not terminally ill - unless you claim to be a ghost?

Originally posted by Yorik: Life is such a gift, and each succeeding moment an undeserved miracle I treasure. To throw away that gift... would be the highest insult to those that have loved me, to those that brought me into the world, to my God who gave me the spark of life.

If life is indeed a 'gift' - then it belongs to those to whom it was given. That is the differerence between a gift and a loan is it not? Or was your life 'loaned' to you?

You claim that your God gave life to you - that's fine - it's your right to believe that and act accordingly.

My life however, was not given to me: it was simply the result of a biological process. My body is a collection of minerals and my mind a series of electric impulses - and no, I have no 'soul'. And when I die, my body will return to the earth and atmosphere and feed the next generation of life; the energy and minerals will be scattered into multiple new organims in the never-ending process. That for me is the most beautiful aspect of death. And it is my right to believe in and put science before any notions of deities.

Originally posted by Yorick: I do not present strong opinions without reason. What I have learned, the values I now hold are hard won. I am a Christian BECAUSE of difficult experiences, not because I am naive and sheltered. I have extensively tested my faith, which is why I am SO ASSURED that what I believe is true.

Nonethelss it remains your opinion and no-one has the right to force their opinion on others to the point that they end up exercising control over the lives of others: that would be slavery, pure and simple.

I am equally assured of the 'factuality' of my convictions on the basis my own life experiences. I have also extensively tested my beliefs in an arduous world and come to my conclusions on the basis of hard logic and scientific study. So should I now deny all religions the right to worship and live their lives in service to their gods and goddesses because I believe in the totality of the righteousness of my convictions?

I do not believe so - I do not believe that I have the right to physically force my beliefs on others. I will forcefully argue and debate my cause - but I will never attempt to seize the lives of others against their will - and I don't believe anyone else should either.

There is *no* love involved in forcing your will upon others.

[ 10-22-2003, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Maelakin]

Originally posted by Yorick I cannot do anything but hold strong opinions after the reality I have been shown. I value my life. I always was intent to learn from others experiences, and value what they did without having to lose those things as they did. Even so, a car accident that left me in a neck brace for months, and the numerous times in hospital, as per the above post, reinforced, and revitalised my priorities and opinions. Things like 9/11 and everything in my life I experience as I go perpetuate all this. I love my God, I love the life he has given me. I am so so thankful to be aware, right now. To be alive right NOW. If I die as soon as this is posted I will be happy to have lived those few extra moments. It's a beautiful thing life.

Your beliefs are not mine. By basing your argument on your beliefs, you are in effect attempting to force your will upon me. In most situations, another attempting to force their will over another is a hostile action.

Why don’t you put aside your beliefs for one minute and try to understand that not everyone believes as you do. As such, when determining the basis of a LAW, there should be no connection to personal beliefs, rather each one should be evaluated as to not infringe on the personal rights of any person. Making suicide illegal infringes on my personal rights as a human being.

Take away religion and any other form of belief-based arguments, and turn only to empirical facts that exist in the world. When looked at in this respect, there is no reason not to allow another person to take his or her own life. You have your right to believe what you will concerning the act, but another should not have to be subjected to your belief and will concerning a decision they can make for themselves.

[Timber Loftis]

Yorick, I think having gone through so much yourself, you may be like the smoker who quits and becomes the most anti-smoking hostile advocate imaginable.

Anyway, the fact that I did not earn this life or chose to be born is no reason to say I can't end this life. In fact, since this life was thrust upon me, possibly against my will, I have every right to end it.