Suggestions for party please.

[Sinteuil]

Aside from experience points from quests, any experience from killing monsters will be divided equally among party members, so parties with fewer members will gain experience more quickly, which obviously effects leveling. On the other hand, if you're new to the game, it's basically worth it to take a full party because you'll want to explore the different classes and learn how to develop them. Apprenticeship basically means that you'll level up at the same time you normally would, except you won't be able to add to attributes. For example, an apprentice mage will be able to learn spells, but because you can't add to intelligence, they'll have a delay in gaining power cast. An apprentice will only remain a "level 0" character with respect to special class-based abilities, such as pole arm with a valk, until attributes have time to catch up (3 levels I believe, with a mook valk).

[ 07-13-2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Sinteuil ]

[killerTeddy]

I never had any apprentices, so i don't know about them.
But party size seems to be a hot topic here, most people seem to prefer small parties, even solos sometimes. Members will level up quicker, but you have to remember that leveling gets a lot slower as you proceed in the game. Also a character who leveled up too fast won't have much chances to train, so he'll have high attributes but low skills. The most annoying thing why i don't like too small parties is that they can't carry enough - in Wizardry you'll find masses of potions, powders, waepons, armor, etc. etc. Even a Fighter with strength 100 can't carry much more if he wears massive platemails. More reasons for not too small parties:
- each caster can set one location he can teleport back to, the more casters the more locations you can visit quickly
- each caster can maintain at most one elemental in one fight
- characters can get paralyzed, knocked out, fall asleep... and they need someone to wake them up again quickly, if that happens during a fight! (only 2 characters - never more than one must be knocked out at a time!)
- in a party you need fighters, someone too open locks, someone to heal the wounded, maybe someone to cast damage spells against especially nasty foes, maybe want to cover most of the magic realms... hard to do all with only very few chars!

[Klutz]

Actually, a Mook Valkyrie starts with "-5" bonus points, so when you reach 2nd level, she will have 5 of 6 points automatically spent, leaving 1 for you to allocate, and for all future levels you allocate 6 attribute points per level just like normal.

As far as I know, there is no disadvantage to being an apprentice other than not being able to put attribute points where you want.

Apprentices aren't generally popular, but there are some interesting race/class combinations that start as apprentices. Dwarf Monk (-15) is the ultimate physical damage resistant character if you go for Ironskin, and Lizardman Bard (-5) is a great high-stamina Bard for lots of music use.

XP is evenly divided among party members, so the more party members the less XP per member. That includes NPC's. A full party of 6 plus NPC's is what I'd always recommend for a first game, and they'll probably finish the game in the low-mid 20s in level. People who like to challenge themselves after playing the game before often run small parties or even solo characters, but I think even those parties/solos only get up into the low 30s before having to "hunt" for XP to get higher levels.

Keep in mind that many encounters are created based on your party's average level, so even if you are getting lots of XP sometimes it's in your best interest to hold back on leveling up until your skill levels get good enough to handle the more difficult encounters you will get after leveling.

[Sinteuil]

According to the manual, apprentices function as "level 0 characters for any special class-based abilities, such as the samurai’s Lightning Strike." Obviously, in the case of lightning strike, there isn't a specific skill that you can alot points to that has been proven conclusively to affect it, so it's not entirely clear how being an apprentice would affect a valk's polearm skill, for example. But presumably, your being "level 0" would detract in some way from the usual bonus the valk would receive for polearm skill, despite the ability to add skill points there.

[ 07-13-2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Sinteuil ]

[Target]

Thanks!!
next question...Are all the magic schools needed to get all the magical bluffs?

[GMK]

All of the magical buffs yes. But in my opinion the four important ones, missile shield, soul shield, magic screen and element shield can all be covered by wizardry and divinity. Wizardry also gives you access to the useful enchanted blade and divinity gets bless, both very useful on higher difficulty or if you are having problems hitting.

If you want a very spoilerish list of all spells and spell schools and so on, visit flamestryke's site, www.flamestryke.com

Great website.

[Target]

I guess the problem of not playing the game is I spent too much time thinking about what party to play...
...So I’ve changed my original selection and come up with the following...comments please.
1. Dracon Fighter, big tank, lots of damage. Starting points into Int, Sen,(to improve close combat etc) Str and Spd, then Str and Dex at level ups.
2. Hobbit Samurai, starting points into Str, Dex and Sen then at level up into Dex and Spd. + mage spells
3. Felpurr Ranger, for the extra speed, points in to sen and dex. Also cover Alchemy spells.
4. Dwarf Priest, lots of points to spend, focus mainly on Pei and int...might convert to Lord or Valk later.
5. Tempted with a Felpurr Monk next, focus on Spd and Dex, then Str, also cover psi spells
6. Lastly a Rawulf Gadgeteer (odd choice maybe) it was either this or a bard, thought I‘d try something different, a gadgeteers toys I think are lighter, a Rawulf for extra Stamina. And for locks and traps

I have the 4 spell books covered in a round about way. Will I miss pick pocket skill?
I’m sure I’ll think of other things later...
Cheers

[Sinteuil]

With fighters, I'd go primarily with strength and dexterity. Intelligence is only really useful for casters in the game, so you might want to consider it for your samurai, especially because developing the samurai's magic may prove more powerful than developing his ranged weapon skills (samurai are notoriously difficult to develop, so deciding on a trade-off on skill development early on isn't a bad idea).

Senses is a particularly excellent choice for both rangers and gadgeteers, since it will eventually unlock eagle eye skill. Unfortunately, gadgeteer toys are actually heavier than the bard instruments, so strength does become an issue, particularly late in the game when you get the heaviest gadgets, but this can be compensated by some miscellaneous magic items you'll find by that point. As you may have heard, the gadgie won't be a truly powerful character until fairly late in the game, so you may want to go with a bard for your first run through the game.

Monk is an excellent choice for covering psi spells, so after speed and dexterity, you may want to cover both strength and intelligence, and perhaps a few points to senses along the way since this may improve criticals.

Lastly, unless you're running an early patch of the game and not the current one, you definitely won't miss pick pocket skill.

[Klutz]

Originally posted by Target: I guess the problem of not playing the game is I spent too much time thinking about what party to play... ...So I’ve changed my original selection and come up with the following...comments please. 1. Dracon Fighter, big tank, lots of damage. Starting points into Int, Sen,(to improve close combat etc) Str and Spd, then Str and Dex at level ups. 2. Hobbit Samurai, starting points into Str, Dex and Sen then at level up into Dex and Spd. + mage spells 3. Felpurr Ranger, for the extra speed, points in to sen and dex. Also cover Alchemy spells. 4. Dwarf Priest, lots of points to spend, focus mainly on Pei and int...might convert to Lord or Valk later. 5. Tempted with a Felpurr Monk next, focus on Spd and Dex, then Str, also cover psi spells 6. Lastly a Rawulf Gadgeteer (odd choice maybe) it was either this or a bard, thought I‘d try something different, a gadgeteers toys I think are lighter, a Rawulf for extra Stamina. And for locks and traps I have the 4 spell books covered in a round about way. Will I miss pick pocket skill? I’m sure I’ll think of other things later... Cheers

Pickpocket is virtually useless in a patched game (1.2.4), and I've never missed it, though I've heard that if you have an unpatched game there are some very good items you can pickpocket early.

Overall party comments: This party in my opinion would be a LOT better and easier to play if you replace the Dwarf Priest with a Bishop (preferably Elven or Faerie). Your hybrids will never be great at magic, and your Bishop's worst school will be better than your best hybrid. You've already mentioned the Gadgeteer is your offbeat choice, but keep in mind that especially playing through the first time without spoilers it takes a long time to find all the pieces to the gadgets you want. (Even with spoilers it's a pain.) Also there's an NPC Gadgeteer if you want to try the class out without creating your own. That being said, Gadgeteers are always useful, and like Bards can be surprisingly good with weapons in addition to their other talents.

Dracon Fighter: Yay! (Thoug I still prefer Lizards.) I would consider pumping SEN to improve close combat but definitely not INT. I've heard other opinions on that, but I'm sticking by mine. I prefer STR & DEX to STR & SPD, but SPD is good also, and you can switch to DEX once STR maxes.

Hobbit Samurai: I'd try to find a way to move up the priority on STR, but that's a fine plan. Switch to STR and SEN as DEX and SPD max.

Felpurr Ranger: Very good choice, and there's a nice item for Felpurrs that would be perfect for a Ranger. Very good sharpshooter plan, though you may find stamina a tad lacking. Switch to STR (which will help with stamina) and then SPD as DEX and SEN max. STR also helps carry lots of arrows while wearing decent armor... if your STR is too low you may have to wear lighter armor than you'd like, carry less arrows/bolts than you'd like, or both.

Dwarf Priest: I'd decide immediately if Valk/Lord is in the future and plan accordingly on the attributes. Dwarves need +15 in SPD and DEX to qualify for either... if you don't plan ahead that will cost you 5 levels of waiting. Lord is probably a tad better than Valkyrie, in that either class can use the maces you learn as a Priest, but Valkyries might be tempted to switch to spears/polearms. Also, just to complicate things, SPD and SEN are very important for spellcasters in Wiz8, because although all characters can use initiative it matters the most for spellcasters. If your Samurai gets down to 20HP and your Priest tries to heal the next round, you really don't want the enemies going first and getting a shot at wiping your Samurai out.

Felpurr Monk: More kitties! Damage will be low but you'll hit accurately and often if you start with DEX & SPD, and stealth + Monk damage resistance will compensate for low VIT. Many players go with the DEX/SPD plan to maximize chances of critical hits, but I prefer a STR/DEX start to first build a reliable accuracy/damage base and then later build SPD/SEN to improve the critical hit chances.

Rawulf Gadgeteer: I have to say that Rawulfs are pretty awful as Gadgeteers (though you can make any race/class combo work... one of the beauties of Wiz8). Mook, Lizard, Felpurr, and Hobbit are the best. (Yes, Felpurr, even taking stamina into account.) You didn't specify a development plan and there are lots of options for Gadgeteers. An Omnigunner would build very similarly to a Ranger, whereas a more gadget-oriented build might want lots of stamina, and you can even go melee with swords, staves, and wands. In this party, guns & gadgets will probably be the focus since you've got plenty of front-liners already, so something a little odd like STR/SEN, DEX/SPD may actually do well.

Suggested Elven Bishop as a replacement for the Dwarf Priest: bonus points to INT, SPD, PIE, max INT and SPD first, then SEN and PIE. You'll start with 65 INT & PIE, 55 SPD & SEN, and have both Powercast and Snakespeed trained decently going into the endgame with PIE and SEN still rising. Faerie Bishops start with better attributes and would get Powercast and Snakespeed faster, but Elven Bishops can wear better armor and use shields, so they're less likely to be randomly killed.

All nitpicking aside, go with what you like and have fun!

[Target]

Thanks that’s a great help.

OK, so for my Dracon Fighter, I’ll put start up points in Str (20) Sen (20 to get to 50) then 10 each in Dex and Spd, each level up focus on Str and Dex.

For the kitty Ranger, each level up I’ll put points in to Sen and Str, to help with that stamina problem, as the Felpurr has good speed and dex.

For the Monk I think Dex and Str will be the way to go.

I’m pretty set on those 3.
I’m now thinking of swapping out the Gadgeteer for a bard, seem that will be more helpful. But what would be the best race for a Bard and why? I might pick up this Gadgeteer along the way.
Also bringing in a bishop seems a good idea. So out goes the dwarf and in...Might go for the Elf. And raise Int and not sure yet...

What are the best stats to raise Bard wise? Would it be Spd and Sen?