USA, my friend, listen! : why the World hates America (not a bash... an eye opener)

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Maybe "they" think this, and "they" think that, but the truth is, like any people of a nation, we are entitled to national pride. If people start talking trash about Canada chances are you'll become defensive. Why should we change our attitude? We want to know why people hate American's enough to kill 6,000 civilians, not why we're not their favorite. That's a very different question. Nothing in your post answers that question. I could care less about being the world's favorite. When they needed us, we were the favorite, and when they need us again, they will smile at the sign of all things American. And not to be rude, but living in Canada, having visited other countries and studying US Foreign policy, does not give you any AMAZING insight into the situation. You are reacting to this issue with what you have been taught, just as American's are reacting out of our teachings. Sharing some of our feelings and belief's is great, but you're still really on the outside looking in. Also, I don't really believe America is "cocky". Actually, I don't think it's proper term to use regarding nations. We speak our beliefs, and act for our own reasons. We frequently bow to international opinion, but I don't think we should.

Actually, Ronn_Bman, your post is a perfect example of what he was talking about, lol!

BTW, did you get my e-mail?

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Actually, Ronn_Bman, your post is a perfect example of what he was talking about, lol! BTW, did you get my e-mail?

I found his answer perfectly reasonable. He wasn't screaming "I'm an American so I'm always right and you all Buzz Off!" He was saying that it only makes sense to take pride in what you have.

I don't see any, 'Why everyone hates Great Britain (or any other country)' threads .. please don't say "because nobody does dislike GB or Canada or .. whatever nation, because I know the sentiments exist, I have heard it in conversations over the years. If you really look, you'll find someone who doesn't like you...it is a fact of life. (I bet a few Irish aren't singing England's undying praise, are they?) So how the heck does the USA always rate the big debates? Because she's a big ol' target! She HAS what many want and that's a reason in and of itself. She is highly visible and she is a major player in the world theater. For some reason, it's expected that because she's a big and prosperous nation she must somehow be perfect and, like Caesar's wife, be above reproach.. sometimes it seems she is expected to save the world single handedly. Well, utopia is an ideal, not a workable plan. For some reason, it seems the good my country does is ignored or belittled or left on the side while any bad is amplified and tossed in our faces. We still do good things we just know we aren't going to be thanked by some people.

Ryanamur, I am another of the 'not in this mold' Americans. I love my country and am proud to be an American. But I respect people in other countries, have a genuine interest in other cultures and know my governmnent has made mistakes and will again. I don't expect the world to be perfect and that includes my own little (or not so little!) corner of it.

I have never had a pleasant exchange, face to face with a French Canadian, do you know that? The times I've been in Montreal the French speaking people have been unbearably rude to me because I do not speak French! One even went so far as to refuse to take my order in a restaraunt! Insisted I say it in French or not eat! Luckily my companions spoke French and he relented... or there would have been a very miserable American girl looking for food in the wee hrs of the morning on the streets of Montreal. We had one man spit at my companions when we asked directions. Seems my (ex)boyfriend spoke Parisian French with an American accent and that wasn't good enough for the Montrealer. But here I am conversing with you and I hold no grudge. I don't assume that because you are of similar heritage and nationality, you will be the same as those I've met before!!! I don't generalize about a whole people based on a few experiences! Good thing, too, as you have proven to be polite, honest and quite pleasant to talk to!

I tell you all of this to make the point that there are as many opinions as there are people in any given country. I too, have met the loud and obnoxious American while at home and abroad. I've cringed in Moscow when I heard a boorish American in the subway or at a kiosk. I've apologized to Russians for the rude behavior of compatriots I didn't even know personally! But I've also seen the generosity of spirit and willingness to help born of a knowledge that we have so much and can afford to give and a genuine wish to help. I've seen both sides of the coin and know that where there is 'cocky' or arrogant there is also compassionate and good. I mention obnoxious Americans I've met, but you know.. I've met similar people from many countries. I just choose to dwell on the decent ones I've encountered. Otherwise I'd never go to Canada or Holland or Russia again and I'd avoid Great Britain, France, Sudan, Mexico, Spain,and New Zealand because I've met rude and overbearing, self-important people from those nations too.

All in all, I'm saying that always targeting the US as a wrong-doer with arrogant,cocky citizens is one sided. Sure we have our share of problems and yes we have some guilt. But there's blame enough to go around and plenty of nations keeping quiet on their own faux pas. I'd like to think we take so much heat because we are a force on the world horizon and not because some conspiracy of anti-Americans is out there... (j/k Ryanamur! )

And before anyone says it... NO, I'm not saying we can't be critcized, I'm just saying if you live in a glass house.. watch where you throw your stones.
The American people are not all to blame for any given government decision that may or may not be 'bad' in your opinion. And it does boil down to opinion in most cases. One person may find an act or lack of action reprehensible, while others find it appropriate. Chastising those who were not responsible is like yelling at the kid who's mate broke your window. What's the point?

Cloudy, who can't believe she just typed all that!

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 10-19-2001).]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Actually, Ronn_Bman, your post is a perfect example of what he was talking about, lol! BTW, did you get my e-mail?

My post was a long winded way of saying, "we are who we are".

I haven't been home to check my email, but I'll look for it.



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"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)

" Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Hebrews 11:1

Ok.

I *can* be an ultra-cocky bitch. But I'm not always, and when I am, it's generally all in good fun with a bunch of close friends and we're all on a roll.

But, having lived in Italy for three years as well as visited France, Spain, Greece and Sicily, these peoples view Americans as *very* ARROGANT (rather than cocky). I found people *expected* me to insist they spoke English or that I wouldn't want to learn of their culture since we Americans are so smug in our own identities. This had been their experience with others. Now, I'm not the 'usual' (to their mind) American-- I adored learning of their cultures (before I visited if possible), actively participated in the everyday lifestyle, and even ::gasp:: tried to speak their language. The exchange was quite amazing, humbling in some ways and a joyous memory.

[Altho, I did find the French in general, without fail, to be exceedingly rude and completely disdainful of anyone who was not French French--this means you Canadians are poor country cousins and thus less than French, I'm afraid). It didn't matter how pleasant I was, I was always treated as sub-human. ::shrug::]

Yeah, I guess we Americans come off as strutting roosters--we're the 'new' kids on the block and still think we need to prove ourselves (i.e *how* many years have these other cultures had to evolve?!?) Unfortunately, we rub a lot of people the wrong way.......

And there are a lot of Americans who are really reprehensible and insensitive, but I'd like to think that most of us everyday joes are pretty ok.........

Garnet

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: I found his answer perfectly reasonable. He wasn't screaming "I'm an American so I'm always right and you all Buzz Off!" He was saying that it only makes sense to take pride in what you have. I don't see any, 'Why everyone hates Great Britain (or any other country)' threads .. please don't say "because nobody does dislike GB or Canada or .. whatever nation, because I know the sentiments exist, I have heard it in conversations over the years. If you really look, you'll find someone who doesn't like you...it is a fact of life. (I bet a few Irish aren't singing England's undying praise, are they?) So how the heck does the USA always rate the big debates? Because she's a big ol' target! She HAS what many want and that's a reason in and of itself. She is highly visible and she is a major player in the world theater. For some reason, it's expected that because she's a big and prosperous nation she must somehow be perfect and, like Caesar's wife, be above reproach.. sometimes it seems she is expected to save the world single handedly. Well, utopia is an ideal, not a workable plan. For some reason, it seems the good my country does is ignored or belittled or left on the side while any bad is amplified and tossed in our faces. We still do good things we just know we aren't going to be thanked by some people. Ryanamur, I am another of the 'not in this mold' Americans. I love my country and am proud to be an American. But I respect people in other countries, have a genuine interest in other cultures and know my governmnent has made mistakes and will again. I don't expect the world to be perfect and that includes my own little (or not so little!) corner of it. I have never had a pleasant exchange, face to face with a French Canadian, do you know that? The times I've been in Montreal the French speaking people have been unbearably rude to me because I do not speak French! One even went so far as to refuse to take my order in a restaraunt! Insisted I say it in French or not eat! Luckily my companions spoke French and he relented... or there would have been a very miserable American girl looking for food in the wee hrs of the morning on the streets of Montreal. We had one man spit at my companions when we asked directions. Seems my (ex)boyfriend spoke Parisian French with an American accent and that wasn't good enough for the Montrealer. But here I am conversing with you and I hold no grudge. I don't assume that because you are of similar heritage and nationality, you will be the same as those I've met before!!! I don't generalize about a whole people based on a few experiences! Good thing, too, as you have proven to be polite, honest and quite pleasant to talk to! I tell you all of this to make the point that there are as many opinions as there are people in any given country. I too, have met the loud and obnoxious American while at home and abroad. I've cringed in Moscow when I heard a boorish American in the subway or at a kiosk. I've apologized to Russians for the rude behavior of compatriots I didn't even know personally! But I've also seen the generosity of spirit and willingness to help born of a knowledge that we have so much and can afford to give and a genuine wish to help. I've seen both sides of the coin and know that where there is 'cocky' or arrogant there is also compasionate and good. I mention obnoxious Americans I've met, but you know.. I've met similar people from many countries. I just choose to dwell on the decent ones I've encountered. Otherwise I'd never go to Canada or Holland or Russia again and I'd avoid Great Britain, France, Sudan, Mexico, Spain,and New Zealand because I've met rude and overbearing, self-important people from those nations too. All in all, I'm saying that always targeting the US as a wrong-doer with arrogant,cocky citizens is one sided. Sure we have our share of problems and yes we have some guilt. But there's blame enough to go around and plenty of nations keeping quiet on their own faux pas. I'd like to think we take so much heat because we are a force on the world horizon and not because some conspiracy of anti-Americans is out there... (j/k Ryanamur! ) And before anyone says it... NO, I'm not saying we can't be critcized, I'm just saying if you live in a glass house.. watch where you throw your stones. The American people are not all to blame for any given government decision that may or may not be 'bad' in your opinion. And it does boil down to opinion in most cases. One person may find an act or lack of action reprehensible, while others find it appropriate. Chastising those who were not responsible is like yelling at the kid who's mate broke your window. What's the point? Cloudy, who can't believe she just typed all that!

LOL! You sure did type all that, Stormcloudy! Felt the lightening!

And you are right, of course - there's great and there's obnoxious in all nations - and the UK was in the forefront of the obnoxious stakes in the 18th to early 20th centuries. I think our arrogance has cooled a bit, but we still think WE are the best and that Britain is the only country worth living in, lo!

But who doesn't prefer their own?

Only thing is - Brits don't generally boast about what we do or defend our faults - we know how far we fail to be what we SHOULD be, and we criticise our leaders and their policies freely and most of us have no objection to others running us down. Maybe that is why people don't post threads knocking us - most of us don't take the bait, we just say 'YEAH! True!'

At least our downbeat, laid-back attitude is less likely to ruffle feathers.

Well, not me personally, of course! I DO tend to ruffle feathers sometimes.


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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Cloudbringer]

Heya Garnet! Nice post! I wanted to add that I found Russia to be a different experience that most other places. The whole culture and political scene then (was still the USSR) encouraged people to either hate the US (good propaganda machine there!) or to desire what it offered enough to actively seek out her citizens. It was not impossible to find anyone in the middle but it was rare!

I found that the average Russian on the street would take me for a Polish, German, Baltic or Hungarian woman. They didn't expect an American and certainly not one that spoke Russian! If they thought I was of Slavic heritage they were polite and helpful for the most part. If they thought I was German, it was nasty. Once on a bus in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) some Soviets sat in the front, loudly villifying Germany and it's people and saying all Germans want war and were despicable. They kept pointedly turning to stare and gesture in the direction of me and my fellow exchangees. As my friends and I got off the bus, I calmly informed the little group and the whole bus that we were American students visiting for the first time and learning about their history,language and culture in very good Russian. My friends and I got off the bus and left some astonished and red faced Soviet citizens behind.


Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Hiram Sedai]

I saw some of that anger when I was in the U.S. Army and flew to Japan. They were protesting us as we were sitting on the plane. Overall, the feeling I got from the population there was that they were looking down their collective nose at us. We were not arrogant in our mission to train with them. Many of us tried our best to learn their language but many of the Japanese soldiers refused to speak with us. Granted, I'm speaking from the perspective of an American and don't have the concept of being anything other than American. I'm proud to be an American with a heritage that stretches back quite far. My last name is Austrian and I have German, Italian, and English blood. I have seen the tourists in Hawaii that only spoke their language. I've also spoken at length with many other people from nations other than the U.S. Their view of us is a bit jaded, in my opinion. I believe its because of our capitalism.

thats my .02

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"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
-Robert McCloskey

• Token lackwit of HADB
  
• Sycophant to the Wolf of Azure Hue
  
• Long lost brother of DragonMage
  
• Bearer of a work of art created by Sazerac
  
• Jeg burde blive gennembanket for min flatulens.[/list]

[Sazerac]

It's not just America. It's everywhere. Everywhere you go, everyone thinks they're the best and everyone else is "lesser." It's not politics, it's the basest form of human nature.

I was on a gaming forum once where a Danish person was calling Germans "pigs" for what had happened 50 years ago. I saw a Czech person get into an absolute flame war with a Austrian on the same board for purely political reasons, and both of them got banned. This was on a forum board for discussing the game "Daggerfall" several years back. (For anyone who remembers, the forum was called "Daggerweb", and, next to Ironworks, was one of the best forums I had ever participated on).

Undoubtedly the Americans are arrogant. So are the British, the Irish, the Scandinavians, the Germans, the French, the Spanish, the Canadians, the Italians, the Russians, the Polish, the Chinese, the Indians, the Pakistani, the Israeli, the Japanese, the Australians...name me ONE culture on the face of this planet that doesn't exhibit racial arrogance of some form or another.

It's a human condition. Plain and simple. And it's a nasty trait we'd ALL do well to rid ourselves of.

I was laughing as I read through this, thinking of an old song by the Kingston Trio (a great "beatnik" folk band from back in the late 50's) called the Merry Minuet. It seems appropriate here.

______________________

Merry Minuet

They’re rioting in Africa (whistling)
They’re starving in Spain (whistling)
There’s hurricanes in Flo-ri-da (whistling)
And Texas needs rain (whistling)
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
AND I DON’T LIKE ANYBODY VERY MUCH!!

But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud
For man’s been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off
AND WE WILL ALL BE BLOWN AWAY!!

They’re rioting in Africa (whistling)
There’s strife in Iran (whistling)
What nature doesn’t do to us (whistling)
Will be done by our fellow "man"....
___________________________

Cheers,




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[Sir Kenyth]

Hey! Y'all misunderstand me! I'm not cocky because I'm an american. I'm cocky because I'm ME!

I'm my very own hero!

When I grow up, I want to be just like me!

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Love me because you had the honor of looking!

When I think about me I touch myself?

Whoa! I feel ill! That was too much conceit, even for me!



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Member of ORT
Master Barbsman and weilder of the razor wit!
Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say!

The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: LOL! You sure did type all that, Stormcloudy! Felt the lightening! Only thing is - Brits don't generally boast about what we do or defend our faults - we know how far we fail to be what we SHOULD be, and we criticise our leaders and their policies freely and most of us have no objection to others running us down. Maybe that is why people don't post threads knocking us - most of us don't take the bait, we just say 'YEAH! True!' At least our downbeat, laid-back attitude is less likely to ruffle feathers. Well, not me personally, of course! I DO tend to ruffle feathers sometimes.

ROTFL!! Hmmm... shall we start a "What's wrong with Great Britain? " thread then? I'll give you credit..

Keep in mind when you say 'defend our faults', the 'fault' in question is usually subject to conjecture and a matter of opinion.

Well these types of threads certainly draw crowds.. many in defensive mode and I'm just saying I like to share the 'wealth'! LOL..

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."