Experience system unfair to magic users/druids?

Kliegs · 08-06-2002, 04:17 PM

So I've been playing through the game and realized that having a henchman drops the XP you get for each kill... I wasn't happy about this but figured ok - you're getting help, its fair... Plus - I was playing a wizard and needed some hired muscle.

However what annoyed me was figuring out that having my familiar or a summoned montser around also caused my XP to drop (at level 9, having a familiar cost me ~30% XP penalty). Not good... Especially at low-level, a fighter can walk into a crowd of monsters and come out alive - wizards need some brute force to stick up for them.

Now - I can understand henchman causing an XP penalty, but familiars, and especially summoned creatures, shouldn't. They're part of what makes a wizard a wizard. To me - its like saying a fighter should get more XP if he isn't wearing his armor. But it seems crippling to me that in a fight, I'll resist casting the summon spells or summoning a familiar because I want the XP.

Oh well - enough of the rant... I've got to admit I don't know the 3rd Edition ruleset since I've only ever looked at the 2nd Ed books - anyone know if this is what the rules say or just "feature" unique to Neverwinter Nights?

-Kliegs

Morgeruat · 08-06-2002, 04:48 PM

the game averages the party lvls so if you get a henchmen, don't lvl them, you'll get more xp, and only use the lower lvl summons (I know it's a ripoff) as they raise the amount of xp, since they're lower level than you are

Kliegs · 08-07-2002, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morgeruat:
the game averages the party lvls so if you get a henchmen, don't lvl them, you'll get more xp, and only use the lower lvl summons (I know it's a ripoff) as they raise the amount of xp, since they're lower level than you are

Raise as in I get more experience with a low level summon then if I didn't have one? Or just more then if I'd had a high level summon... Wish the documentation was a bit more helpful here... Oh well - time to go experiment...

Darkman · 08-07-2002, 02:13 AM

If you use a high level summon it will lower the XP you would normally get, but if you are high level and use a significantly lower level summons you will get an XP bonus (ie. more XP than usual). It all depends on the Average Level of your Party (party consists of yourself, and any henchmen, familiars, companions, & summons). Higher Average Party Level = less XP. Lower APL = more XP.

Kliegs · 08-07-2002, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkman:
If you use a high level summon it will lower the XP you would normally get, but if you are high level and use a significantly lower level summons you will get an XP bonus (ie. more XP than usual). It all depends on the Average Level of your Party (party consists of yourself, and any henchmen, familiars, companions, & summons). Higher Average Party Level = less XP. Lower APL = more XP.

Are you sure about that? How much difference does it need to be? Last night went to test and saved the game 1 shot short of killing the master werewolf. As a level 10 wizard, killing him outright gave me 525 points. Summoning a dire badger (Summon Creature 1) gave me ~350 (don't remember exact amount). Summonning a dire spider (Summon Creature 4) gave me ~326 (about 20 points less).

The whole XP and effort level seams weird. I'm being told Trolls are easy (maybe effortless) but unless I have a henchman or throw some serious spells at them I can barely win (that damn regeneration heals 'em as quick as I hurt 'em). I've gone and switched my style now to buff up my wizard each morning (mage armor, bull strength, endurance, cat's grace, stoneskin, ghostly visage) so he can survive in a fight... Good thing he's got a 25 int for all the spells (no cheat - started at 18, +1 level up, +2 Thyferian helm, 2x+2 int rings). But I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have just made a fighter (or a monk?) if I'm playing that way.

Darkman · 08-07-2002, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kliegs:
Are you sure about that? How much difference does it need to be? Last night went to test and saved the game 1 shot short of killing the master werewolf. As a level 10 wizard, killing him outright gave me 525 points. Summoning a dire badger (Summon Creature 1) gave me ~350 (don't remember exact amount). Summonning a dire spider (Summon Creature 4) gave me ~326 (about 20 points less).

Well it's what I've been told. I have no idea what the exact XP formula is. It sure would be nice if someone posted it..

Quote:

The whole XP and effort level seams weird. I'm being told Trolls are easy (maybe effortless) but unless I have a henchman or throw some serious spells at them I can barely win (that damn regeneration heals 'em as quick as I hurt 'em). I've gone and switched my style now to buff up my wizard each morning (mage armor, bull strength, endurance, cat's grace, stoneskin, ghostly visage) so he can survive in a fight... Good thing he's got a 25 int for all the spells (no cheat - started at 18, +1 level up, +2 Thyferian helm, 2x+2 int rings). But I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have just made a fighter (or a monk?) if I'm playing that way.

On one hand I'm tempted to say just try to play the game how you want to play it without worrying about maximizing XP. But on the other hand, I sure would like to know the details of how my character is gaining experience too. It is indeed a shame that the manual is not more specific about such things, and I've yet to find a fan site that has in depth game information

Kliegs · 08-07-2002, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkman:
On one hand I'm tempted to say just try to play the game how you want to play it without worrying about maximizing XP. But on the other hand, I sure would like to know the details of how my character is gaining experience too. It is indeed a shame that the manual is not more specific about such things, and I've yet to find a fan site that has in depth game information

I've been alternating a bit... I've been trying to maximize XP a bit because I'm worried I may pay for it at later levels if I don't... Since there aren't any random encounters or anything, it looks like there's a finite amount of experience available.. And since it doesn't do that summoned spider any good to gain XP.....

It'd be nice to know the formula - I think I'll hack around tonight and see if I can get anything vaguely consistant... Would help if I had the actual 3rd Ed. books for monster stats and all... Oh well, it'd be too easy then.

Arnabas · 08-07-2002, 06:39 PM

Actually, on the topic of trolls... Do they actually regenerate in this game? Maybe I just kill them too fast, but I never see them healing. And I can kill them without fire or acid, which I found strange. When I played pnp, I was somewhat afraid of trolls, as they just kept coming back, but now they're no problem.
Just like dragons in this game don't have (or maybe just don't USE) their breath weapons.

Kliegs · 08-07-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arnabas:
Actually, on the topic of trolls... Do they actually regenerate in this game? Maybe I just kill them too fast, but I never see them healing. And I can kill them without fire or acid, which I found strange. When I played pnp, I was somewhat afraid of trolls, as they just kept coming back, but now they're no problem.
Just like dragons in this game don't have (or maybe just don't USE) their breath weapons.

Yah - they regenerate... As a wizard I can't beat them without using spells because I only have 1 attack/round. I can pummel them for a while, get them to Near Death, then a couple of unlucky rolls and they're back to injured 5 rounds later... As a rough guess, I'd say that normal trolls heal ~3-5 HP/round. I had a troll stuck on a ledge where he couldn't reach me and shot a full quiver and a half of bolts into him (with either +9 or +10 attack) before I gave up.

I've used fire and acid on them and that damage isn't treated any differently - they appear to take normal damage (what you'd expect from the die rolls) and can regenerate that damage as well... Maybe I should try swinging my torch at them next time!

WOLFGIR · 08-19-2002, 05:20 AM

Seems that they changed the XP from the DnD3:ed ruleset to suit the single play system. One thing that I don´t like are the small differencies that makes an outcome different from playing PnP and the game. But well, you get used to it. In PnP a characters ability to call for help, summnon creatures and familiars is already included in their "value" as a person. I don´t know if you get experience for killing a persons summoned creature or not.

If you do however well..oki.. Still a bit stuid, it´s like hey, I should get more XP for killing a person with only lvl 1 spells instead of lvl 9 spells. It´s the inate abilities of a person and should IMHO be treated as such.

If you are poor little wizard or a fightre, you still need help. My fighter level 4 died from traps, then I realised that the annoying Tomi was the only help, or to get a few levels of rouge.. So it works for all classes..

Some tip. If you see an easy fight comming, don´t use your henchmen and try to kill as many nasties as possible, get some fireball scrolls and hunt goblins.. Web and then fireball usually will boast your XP and your chance to get away alive.

The game is a long way of balance all the time.

08-06-2002, 04:17 PM	#1
Kliegs Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Age: 50 Posts: 7	So I've been playing through the game and realized that having a henchman drops the XP you get for each kill... I wasn't happy about this but figured ok - you're getting help, its fair... Plus - I was playing a wizard and needed some hired muscle. However what annoyed me was figuring out that having my familiar or a summoned montser around also caused my XP to drop (at level 9, having a familiar cost me ~30% XP penalty). Not good... Especially at low-level, a fighter can walk into a crowd of monsters and come out alive - wizards need some brute force to stick up for them. Now - I can understand henchman causing an XP penalty, but familiars, and especially summoned creatures, shouldn't. They're part of what makes a wizard a wizard. To me - its like saying a fighter should get more XP if he isn't wearing his armor. But it seems crippling to me that in a fight, I'll resist casting the summon spells or summoning a familiar because I want the XP. Oh well - enough of the rant... I've got to admit I don't know the 3rd Edition ruleset since I've only ever looked at the 2nd Ed books - anyone know if this is what the rules say or just "feature" unique to Neverwinter Nights? -Kliegs __________________ -Kliegs

08-06-2002, 04:48 PM	#2
Morgeruat Jack Burton Join Date: October 16, 2001 Location: PA Age: 45 Posts: 5,421	the game averages the party lvls so if you get a henchmen, don't lvl them, you'll get more xp, and only use the lower lvl summons (I know it's a ripoff) as they raise the amount of xp, since they're lower level than you are __________________ "Any attempt to cheat, especially with my wife, who is a dirty, dirty, tramp, and I am just gonna snap." Knibb High Principal - Billy Madison

08-07-2002, 02:13 AM	#4
Darkman Avatar Join Date: July 11, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 44 Posts: 525	If you use a high level summon it will lower the XP you would normally get, but if you are high level and use a significantly lower level summons you will get an XP bonus (ie. more XP than usual). It all depends on the Average Level of your Party (party consists of yourself, and any henchmen, familiars, companions, & summons). Higher Average Party Level = less XP. Lower APL = more XP. __________________ There more of it there is,<br />The less you see.

08-07-2002, 06:39 PM	#8
Arnabas Baaz Draconian Join Date: October 11, 2001 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada Age: 54 Posts: 721	Actually, on the topic of trolls... Do they actually regenerate in this game? Maybe I just kill them too fast, but I never see them healing. And I can kill them without fire or acid, which I found strange. When I played pnp, I was somewhat afraid of trolls, as they just kept coming back, but now they're no problem. Just like dragons in this game don't have (or maybe just don't USE) their breath weapons. __________________ Est Sularis oth Mithas

08-19-2002, 05:20 AM	#10
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 51 Posts: 3,450	Seems that they changed the XP from the DnD3:ed ruleset to suit the single play system. One thing that I don´t like are the small differencies that makes an outcome different from playing PnP and the game. But well, you get used to it. In PnP a characters ability to call for help, summnon creatures and familiars is already included in their "value" as a person. I don´t know if you get experience for killing a persons summoned creature or not. If you do however well..oki.. Still a bit stuid, it´s like hey, I should get more XP for killing a person with only lvl 1 spells instead of lvl 9 spells. It´s the inate abilities of a person and should IMHO be treated as such. If you are poor little wizard or a fightre, you still need help. My fighter level 4 died from traps, then I realised that the annoying Tomi was the only help, or to get a few levels of rouge.. So it works for all classes.. Some tip. If you see an easy fight comming, don´t use your henchmen and try to kill as many nasties as possible, get some fireball scrolls and hunt goblins.. Web and then fireball usually will boast your XP and your chance to get away alive. The game is a long way of balance all the time. __________________ Don´t eat the yellow snow

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